Stuck in a right turn....

Stuck in a right turn....

I'm trying to track down a right turn tendancy on my 152... I've had
the airplane rigged to try and correct a right turn tendancy(cable
tensions checked, ailerons adjusted, rudder trim tab adjusted, and
flaps adjusted)with only a slight improvement. When flying straight
and level(either solo from left or right seat or with a passenger)
the yoke drops to the right and the airplane enters about a 30 degree
bank. If I physically hold the yoke centered it flys straight but as
soon as I let off it drops to the right. In a left turn the ailerons
respond immediately, but in a right turn there is a good deal of play
in the yoke before the airplane responds. Any ideas? It's been
suggested the ailerons could be out of balance from a repaint several
years ago.

Thanks for your help....

Jeff

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Does your aircraft have an autopilot?

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

C-150's (and I assume 152's) have an adjustment for each wing to change the angle of attack slightly.  It is not a difficult job--ask your A&P if that might help.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Jeff, As Bob mentioned check your aft wing root eccentric bushings to see if they are adjusted right.  They change the angle of incidence of the wing by washing out one wing and washing in the other wing.  This adjustment should be done first, if not previously done. This should be done by your A&P since you will have to retorque the wing root bolt when done.  Good luck.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Bob,
Is a wing heavy condition causing the yoke to turn? If Jeff can physically hold the yoke centered and fly straight, there is not a wing rigging problem. Something is causing the yoke to turn right which then causes the right turn.

Jeff,
Improperly balanced ailerons can cause this problem, as well as improper reskinning techniques.
Check to make sure that you even have the led balance weights installed on the ailerons, and that you have the same quantity on both. Then look at the trailing edge of both ailerons. You'll notice that there straight from the inboard end, to a point about 16" from the outboard end, where they sweep up to the tip and should line up with the tip. This "sweep up" should be identical on left and right. If it is not, you will have a trim effect, which will turn the yoke the same way your elevator trim moves the yoke.
If you have an autopilot system that uses vacuum bellows, check for leaks.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Re. the question of balance....what happens to the yoke when you center it while the plane is sitting on the ramp with the engine shut down?  Does it move toward the right then? Are the ailerons in the proper position when it's centered then?  If it were balance, I would think it would be very apparent under these conditions.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Bob,
You've got a good point. Balance is probably not Jeff's problem, however, because there is friction in the system, you wouldn't notice a right turn tendancy when the aircraft is static. It would only become apparent when you throw motion into the equation. When the wing is flying, generating lift, there is still some "residual" lift on the upper surface of the aileron, even though it's not producing lift itself. So, there is a force working on the aileron control system in flight, that's not there when static. Balance becomes important in flight, and generally has narrower tolerances for surfaces on faster aircraft.
Something is causing the yoke to turn. With equal lift, and airflow on both top and bottom, the ailerons will want to neutralize. They should. Was it Newton; an object in motion will continue in a state of uniform motion until acted upon by some outside force? Jeff is trying to identify the force. I'm giving him ideas.
The 152 is no speed demon, so I think a balance difference would have to be significant to affect operation, but a possibility.
Del

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

You may laugh at this one but it could be mud dabbers.
You would be amazed how much mud these busy fellows can pack in a very short time. 
If they have a large build up near the outboard end of the wing, your turning problem may be several pounds of mud daubber nests.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Jeff left this message on 2-23 and its now 3-9 and no word from Jeff.   I have a feeling he is out flying his newly rigged 152 with the wing root angle of incidence adjustment, while we are all beating our brains out with half baked theories  smile  .

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Interesting theory, Bob.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Clay, You bring up a good point.  I had a friend that had no airspeed  indication in his 172, cause was mud dabbers.  The pitot tube cover was accidentally left off over the weekend and they were able to plug up the system that quick.  I guess they could do the same to a flight control or wing interior.  Sure hope Jeff lets us know what fixed the problem.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

I've seen a wing collect a substantial amount of water after a pretty good rainstorm.  The water was discovered prior to takeoff during a left turn during taxi.  It was draining out near or at the wingtip, several left turns or circles seemed to drain it out just fine.
Im sure if enough was out near the wingtip, it could cause a heavy wing situation..
Michael

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

In the mid 1990's Kansas State University-Salina purchased several used C-150s. 
One of the planes came from northern Arkansas. One of the school's mechanics flew it back to Salina and said it was heavy in one wing.  Turned out there be seven pounds of mud daubber nest in the wing.

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Sorry for no word back... I am waiting to see my A&P.. he is convinced it is an aileron balance problem. While sitting on the ground the ailerons will sit at neutral, we checked aileron position on the ground with the yoke centered and all seemed to be OK.

Jeff

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

When you force the a/c to fly straight and level, what is the T/B indicator telling you? More specifically the ball.  Is it off to the left?  If it is..it's a rudder trim or possibly a vertical stabilizer allignment problem.  Hopefully it's the rudder.  Another possibility is that the engine is mounted stightly ascew.  Engine thrust lines are never aligned with the longitudinal axis of the a/c.  This is by design to offset some of the assemetrical thrust generated by the prop.  Sometimes durning a reinstall of the engine mount and or engine they get it slightly wrong.  The other possibility, aside from what you mention is that the angle of incidence is not as the design calls for one wing have more that the other.  This would, in effect cause each wing to act as a huge airleron and a very small varience from the design angle might effectivly cause this turning tendency you speak of.  This is especially dangerours at slow speeds since one wing will stall before the other even in what you might regard as coordinated flight and an incipant spin is the result.  I once encountered a C-152 like this and after recognising the problem grounded the A?C until adjustments could be made.
Hope this helps....good luck

Erich
CFIAI ASMEL&S

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Jeff; What was the outcome?  Dod you resolve the problem?

     Dave

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

Jeff, sorry about the problems your having. This is an interesting post.  I haven't (knock on wood) had to deal with this type of problem.  It seems to me from the posts going back and forth the following are the "facts" (as I read them):

The plane flies straight and level in coordinated flight (ball in the center) when the yoke is held straight (I’m assuming the ailerons are in there neutral position).

The plane turns right only after the yoke turns right after it is let go.

Did Jeff own the airplane at any time when this condition did not exist?  He has stated:

"It's been suggested the ailerons could be out of balance from a repaint several years ago."
It would be nice to know when the condition first occurred and has the plane ever flown right, while Jeff owned it.

Given this information, there is a force on the cables that are causing the yoke to turn.  Since it only happens in flight, I would conclude it is a force caused by the ailerons.  All this may seem obvious to you guys, but I haven't dealt with this before so "I am thinking out loud" for you to comment.

Jeff said: "In a left turn the ailerons respond immediately, but in a right turn there is a good deal of play in the yoke before the airplane responds."  I was curious about this?  Does that mean the plane flies straight and level with the yoke slightly to right while it's in the "play" zone and the ailerons haven't responded?  I’d like to hear more about this.  Having asked that, keep in mind it is normal for the plane to respond to a left turn more readily than a right and you may need a little right rudder to assist the right turn.  So my question to Jeff is do you actually see the ailerons moving when immediately turning the yoke left, but DO NOT see them moving when turning to the right?  Or, are you assuming they are moving because the plane responds to a left turn more readily than a right?

However, not having all the information hasn’t stopped anyone yet!  So with that in mind, we should turn our attention to what can cause this force during motion. 

Del made suggestions as to the proper shape of the aileron.  No feedback from Jeff on this.

Weights in the aileron - Can Jeff see these weights?  Are any weights present?  Could they have been lost or altered when the ailerons are removed for painting? 

Are there any new modifications installed, e.g. vortex generators, or some other type that alters the airflow streamlines or circulation?

Just thought that I'd put my 1-cent in....

Jeff, let us know what happens

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Re: Stuck in a right turn....

I take back what I said about a right turn. 

<Having asked that, keep in mind it is normal for the plane to respond to a left turn more readily than a right and you may need a little right rudder to assist the right turn. >

It is harder while in a climb or slow flight but the effect may not be noticeable while flying straight and level in normal cruise.

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