Horton stol for 182

Horton stol for 182

does anyone knows in which 182 models it is really an advantage to have the kit installed?
Branko

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Re: Horton stol for 182

Hi, basically these STOL kits are OK and I don't object to them, but remember they are certified as "Not degrading the aircraft performance" The official certification acknowledges NO improvement. Having done between 5 and 10 conversions and flown the before/after test flights on various models, I agree with this. There is a SLIGHT perceptable increase in roll authority at /near the stall, which I suspect may be due to the aileron gap seal as much as anything else. When the stall is 'pushed' the break is sharper with more chance of a wing drop. There is also a slight reduction in INDICATED stall speed, but with the advent of GPS this has proved to be a change in the indication due, I suppose to the reprofiled leading edge altering the airflow/calibration of the pitot (this was proved/acknowledged by R/STOL many years ago). The kit will also cost you a smallish but definite weight penalty (don't remember the figure) In conclusion, if I had a new Cessna, I would definitely want the gap seals (cheap, negligible weight) but wouldn't put a Horton (or any other leading edge mod) on my plane.

All this is assuming a PROPERLY done mod. I have seen some that were terrible, causing increased stall speeds and loss of climb and cruise due to badly done rivets etc, causing a break in the laminer flow.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I had the Horton STOL kit along with a Seibel speed kit installed on my 1962 Cessna 182.  I descreased my stall speed in all configurations and increased 75% cruise speed by 10%.  With no flaps, there was only a neglible difference in stall speed.  With 20% flaps, stall went from 58 ias to 52 ias.  With 40% flaps, it went from 56 ias to 48 ias.  These numbers correlate well to what my GPS shows as ground speed.  The stall was calm before, but is much more benign now.  Basically, neither wing drops and the plane, once it has stopped flying, simply drops.  I had gap seals prior to the STOL installation.  On takeoff, the plane becomes very light at 40 ias and starts to fly at 60 ias.  I do not have reliable information on shortened takeoff distance but it "seems" shorter.  The speed kit was extremely difficult to install.  Horton does not actually have kits for each model year.  The kits have to be fitted to your plane.  The leg fairings have been almost impossible to permanently attach.  The fairings come as a top and bottom half which is epoxied together, then painted.  The flexing of the landing gear upon touchdown keeps causing them to separate.  I now have an airplane that flies as slow as 47 knots or as fast as 146 knots at 75% power and 6500 msl.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I have two C-182's, a '56 and a '57. The 57 came with a Horton Stol when I purchased it in '93. I obtained the '56 a few years later. I have found the handling characteristics at slow speeds to be very noticable between the two planes. The '57 is actually hard to stall period. Upon landing the airspeed indicator is barely reading over 40. The '56 on the other hand warrents full attention when speeds fall below 60. I live in Idaho and do a fair amount of back country flying. I plan on installing a STOL hit on the '56. Neither aircraft have flap gap seals but those will go on too.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

Kelly,
Speaking of the straight-tale vs later 182's, is there any cruise speed difference, assuming no mods?  The older ones sure do look better in my opinion.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I considered a 1961 182 when I was looking to purchase a 182.
I liked the no window rear, as in, who needs it. But I found the gross weight to be 2650 lbs. So I bought a 1962 which has 2800 gross wgt. and thus is more suitable for my needs.
Glenn

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I have owned a 1963 C-182 since 1973. About 5 years after acquiring it I had the Horton STOL kit installed.  I found the difference in most parameters to be a considerable improvement, although I did not do careful measurements prior to the conversion. The airplane is difficult to stall, especially with flaps, and maintains aileron control throughout the stall which is more of a mush than a break. You have to work it into a secondary stall to get any noticable break. Lift off is much quicker, and landings are much shorter, depending on whether you want to use stol techniques of horns blowing on final. I believe that the STOL kit is a big improvement over the original configuration, it nothing more than for safety and docility.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

All the improvements in handling come from the gap seals and wing fence, both part of the Horton mod. The drop in indicated stall speed is just that - a drop in the indicator reading i.e an increased error on the low side at high angles of attack caused by the reprofiled leading edge. This has been proven by Robertson, who in an attempt to certify their mod properly had to move the position of the pitot on all the types that included a leading edge mod. Eventually they dropped the leading edge part of their mod altogether while still retaining better figures than Horton. Horton didn't bother, choosing instead to certify their mod as "no deterioration" status. Because of this they cannot/do not publish certified reduced approach and stall speeds like R/STOL do. The Horton leading edge is a bit like those little spoilers on the back of saloon cars, the owner who paid his money for it feels good and thinks it does something....This is helped by the impresive (and false) reduction in INDICATED stall speed which nearly always impresses the average weekend flyer. As for characteristics, try a FULL stall (all the way to the break) at somewhere near the aft C of G. it wont behave like your average Cessna anymore, which is exactly why Cessna never put these mods on in the first place.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

The most "bang for buck" is vortex generators (VG's).  The kit costs about $1500 and includes the STC.  Takes about a day to install.  Aileron gap seals and flap gap seals would complete your STOL conversion.  Note that VG's will not only be on your wing, but on tail surfaces too.

In the Nov 2004 issue of "Private Pilot", a step-by-step installation of VG's on a C210 is detailed.  After installation, the authors noted a much reduced stall (15 kts. less with 30% flaps).  Also, the Winter 2004 issue of "Pilot Getaways" has a technical discussion of VG's.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I was wondering if anyone has installed a stol kit or the VG's on a 172A model. If so what kind of results should be expected. It does have flap gap seals and droop tips.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I have a Horton STOL on my 1964 182, and have had a similar experience to others here. The stall is very benign and is more like a big parachute descending. It's very difficult to get a solid 'break'. It's a 130 knot airplane at 75% so no speed improvement that I can discern. Overall, I think the kit improves safety margins by a bit.

Dave

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Re: Horton stol for 182

  I have just recently purchased the Horton STOL kit for my 1967 Cessna 172H. I'm not quit sure what I'm reading about the kit. Is it a good improvement or not. I would like some GOOD feed back.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

installed the flap gap seals only over the armpits of my 66 skyhawk. it appears that i have gained about three knots of airspeed, but i love the way it lands with no flaps. can hold the yoke all the way back on landing with no apparent drop.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I like all these posts about the "benign stall of my Cessna with such and such mod" in other words, just like it was when Cessna built it!

Remember if the aircraft is mushing steadily down "like a parachute" the wing is still flying, not stalled. The reason is that the aircraft is at light weight and forward CofG. This happens with most light planes as there is not enough backstick to break the stall at that loading configuration. this is a function of weight and balance and not anything to do with any of the aftermarket mods that may be fitted.

Remember we are supposed to be looking for an improvement here, all thes guys are reporting is that the plane still flies nicely, as it always did.

No one has got proper figures except the gullible chap who thinks he got a 15kt reduction in stall on his 210. If a 15kt reduction was possible you can bet that the manufacturer of the VG's would claim it (which they don't) instead of the couple of knots only (which they do). Basically he has fallen sucker for the huge error in his ASI which is caused by the extra angle of attack afforded by the VG's which distorts the airflow into the pitot tube. This angle cannot be used for takeoff or landing of course because the tail of the aircraft will be lower than the main landing gear at this point. Incidentally all the SE Cessnas were designed so that even if  the tail was on the ground, the wing (without cuffs of course) would still not be at stalling angle of attack. What he will have is a slight reduction in climb and cruise. remember if they don't cause any drag, they wouldn't need gluing on, they would just sit there! He will also have better control authourity at low speeds which is the real benefit of VG's.

What none of these weekend flyers are doing is trying FULL STALLS at AFT CofG and gross weight before and after these leading edge mods (which of course they shouldn't) If they did the results would not be so good.

I am not against most of these mods, I am just pointing out that they are generally overrated by pilots who dont know how to test them properly and don't fully understand the aerodynamics and implications of what they do which is usually very little.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

What would be the best speed mod.My 182E willcruise at 125knots indicated at22/23.I bought it Horton equipped and even if it is not performance enhancing at least if I have a leading edge bird strike it can be easily repaired.Is it not a little unusual that if these mods were so good that Cessna has not redesigned their new aircraft.How fast will these airframes cruise without touching the motor anyway.A fellow in Western Australia told me yesterday he had a freak for sale that would cruise at 160kts.Pigs fly too.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

Looking st a 1962 c-182 with a Horton STOL kit.
Does this mod reduced the take off and landing distance?

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Re: Horton stol for 182

Well. although I agree with you about the weekend fliers I did not see you contribute anything good or bad to the stol kit mod. It is true that because of the forrward cg on cessna 182s it is hard to stall appropriately.
 
  But I can say for certain that Horton stol kit is a GOOD addition to a cessna 182. I am a bushpilot in Mexico I have only flown a cessna 182 A model with a stol kit and I own a 182 B model without a stol kit.
 
  The stall with a stol kit loaded is much less forgiving than the stall on the original aircraft. Of course im talking about a loaded 182.
    my 182b without the stol kit at stall loaded is mushy and ailerons are nonresponsive on the modified it is sharp but ailerons are good even in the stall(you can credit the aileron control to the vgs)

   the reduction on stall speed is 4 to 7 knots of speed on this mod and that would decrease your takeoff roll by up to 10% not mentioning the increased performance on climbout .

   The horton stol kit does in fact improve the slow flight capabilities and probably seem even better when not loaded. but when loaded you are much closer to reaching the aerodynamic capability of the wing which will make it stall more severely. you have to remember the further aft your cg is the more angle of attack you can put on the wing therefore the slower you can get and this is where the mod then comes into action you can fly 4 to 7 knots slower without stalling. again this is loaded. same goes with vgs if you install vgs the stall becomes more severe since you are reaching even further into the aerodynamic capability.

  So for all those asking themselves is my stol kit good or bad? it is a good modification WHEN you operate your aicraft the same as if it was not modified. that means following your poh. if you start exceeding your poh you might as well start flying a different airplane because thats what youre getting, a different flight characteristic.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

David Fleming Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What would be the best speed mod.My 182E
> willcruise at 125knots indicated at22/23.I bought
> it Horton equipped and even if it is not
> performance enhancing at least if I have a leading
> edge bird strike it can be easily repaired.Is it
> not a little unusual that if these mods were so
> good that Cessna has not redesigned their new
> aircraft.How fast will these airframes cruise
> without touching the motor anyway.A fellow in
> Western Australia told me yesterday he had a freak
> for sale that would cruise at 160kts.Pigs fly too.

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Re: Horton stol for 182

I am with Lone Mountain Aviation in Las Vegas, NV.  We have a P206 and a 182K That have shoulder harnesses bolted to the center frame structure where the nut plates are that Cessna put in when they built the aircraft.  I have not found any STC for this installation or if they came from the factory that way.  Anybody have any references for this?

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