overhaul

overhaul

I have a 172, on leaseback to flying school. it is coming up on 2500 hours and they are saying it HAS to have the engine replaced or rebuilt. there is nothing to indicate that the engine is not working properly. all maintenance has been done, 50 hour and 100 hour. does need a couple of CUPS of oil before the next change though. Is it true, it has to be rebuilt to the tune of 25,000? Need some help. I don't want to fix something that really has lots of useful life. I have articles that say the worst time for failure is less than 150 hours, and over 2500 there are very few problems, unless there are some symptoms. thanks

martha davis
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Re: overhaul

The stickler is that you have the airplane at a flight school. Liability issues usually come to a head. I have been a Director of Maintenance at a number of flight schools and the standard for overhaul is 2K hours, no exceptions. The Recomended time between overhaul for your engine is 2K hours and if exceeded it will not hurt anything, however, most lease backs and flight school aircraft follow recomended overhaul times for the engines. I have overhauled numerous engines and the longer they are operated past TBO, and more things are worn beyond limits and have to be replace rether than reused. If there were something to happen to your airplane with a student flying it, the lawyers would have a field day with that case. Lately some Insurance providers are insisting on a 2K overhaul or they will drop you. As the owner of the airplane you have the option to have the engine overhauled rather than let the flight school handle it. Read the lease agreement, some of them specify engine overhaul times...
-Tom

Tom Roberts
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Re: overhaul

thank you for your reply. My concern is that they charge more than any one else in the area and I suspose I need to find some one else to do the overhaul. I understand an "estimate" may not be real accurate, but 25,000 seems really too much, eventhough I was warned. I guess I can just take it off lease back, and fly it myself. the lease agreement doesn't say they have to perform maintenance, it just must be proper parts in accordance with maintenance manuals for the aircraft and the FAA rules etc. So I guess I am looking or will just get my license and and then maybe go for a "partnership" of some kind.  MD

Martha Davis
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Re: overhaul

Martha
Sounds to me like the quote you received was for a factory remanufactured or factory overhauled engine. This is not a bad thing as a factory warranty is priceless. An overhaul can be had for around 12/15K and still get a quality piece. Where are you located?, as there are many shops that will do the overhaul with parts for around 10K. (Keep in mind that the Remove / Reinstall labor is around 30 hrs) The first thing to do is find a HONEST mechanic... The partnership thing probably would not be too enticing as the engine is high time and a lot of prospects look for low time engines. A high time engine is not necessarily a bad thing but when the engine starts to nickel and dime you, it will eat $$$ quick

Tom Roberts
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Re: overhaul

I live in Bakersfield, Calif and the only people who have worked on the plane are the mechanics that work for the flight school. they really charge a lot for everything. How do I find any one else that would be certified to Cessna standards and satisfy the flight school, and perhaps also be honest? As soon as I am not haveing to take lessons, it may be cheaper to just make the payments and not mess with the lease back. The lease agreement does not specify, only that they can do 5000 worth(worth is a matter of opinion ?) of repairs, with out getting my approval. I would be able to fly it somewhere to get a job done, which might be cost effective. Is a "factory warranty" really worth the cost? MD

Martha Davis
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Re: overhaul

Hi Martha;

I have a 1978 C-172N with the Lycoming 0-320 H2AD engine.  It was overhauled in 2004 by One Stop Aviation in Oceanside, CA.  The cost of the overhaul was $12,000.  One Stop has a good reputation, and I think if you fly your plane into Oceanside airport, they will remove, overhaul, and reinstall the engine for you.  They also make house (hangar) calls, but I don't know if they go as far as Bakersfield.  They do go regularly to Chino (where I am based).  Hope this helps.

Jon

Jonathon Plaxton
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Re: overhaul

appreciate your reply. talked to another maint co today and they said a rebuilt engine would be 20,200 from the company in the "trade a plane magazine", (plus 600 for shippling from texas, but then there isn't calif sales tax)and 1500 labor plus parts, hoses and engine mounts.
The place in Oceanside, would be worth investigating, (would be nice to be there now its over 100 here) Maybe the inherant value would be better to get the rebuilt factory waranty. Its going to be a difficult decision. But I have to get my ticket before they tear the poor plane apart, going for pre check ride evaluation later this week. MD

Martha Davis
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Re: overhaul

Factory Warranties do increase the inherent value over a shop overhaul, When you start doing the numbers there is not a whole lot of difference in prices. The last Lycoming that I quoted, the difference was about $1200 (over a factory Overhaul). One thing you may consider, after the engine is overhauled, is to increase the hull value of the airplane as the value will increase with a fresh engine.

Tom Roberts
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Re: overhaul

What is "hull Value"? I talked to another co yesterday, they get rebuilt engines from a place in Texas, mine Would be about 20,200 plus shipping 600 or so, so no calif sales tax. install is 1500 (which would be the amount of the tax) including take out, plus hoses, motor mts about 1200. that is almost the 25,000 my flight school said off the top of their head. I need a better estimate from them, because they are 30% higher on everything than some other places. Is their a difference in warranties, from a cessna certified mechanic or just a regular mechanic? I may be a woman, but I can read and maybe sort this out, especially with help from other pilots.  thanks so much  MD

Martha Davis
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Re: overhaul

Hi Martha
"Hull Value" is the value of the airplane it is often called Hull insurance, why... you got me... The difference in the warranties is in comparision to a car lot operated by "Joe" compared to a full service dealership, Joe being the average engine shop compared to the factory. This is possibly the largest investment, next to the airplane, that you will make. Ther are a lot of engine shops out there that do excellent work but cannot compete with a factory warranty.
I am not a pilot, just an A&P with an IA with 25 years experience, I like to help people and it makes me furious to see honest folks get ripped off. Any further help needed let me know...

Tom Roberts
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Re: overhaul

Dear Tom, well now that we are "buddies", It seems to be just boiling down to "when" you do the replacement, a few hours or dollars one way or the other probably doesn't matter. I just don't want to make an uninformed decision and then find out later, well, whoops I could have saved 8 grand or so. that could be my vaction to Tibet. (really am going to Tibet mext year in May) Or end up with some one who takes two months to get it done, once they have the engine out, all kinds of excuses can surface. Just have to try and find the most reliable and reputable person or place. appreciate your input  Marty

Martha Davis
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Re: overhaul

I just paid western skways in Montrose Colorado 16,500 for a 180hp 0-360-A4A reman with new lycoming cylinders and a new cam.  Their warranty is SUPERIOR to the factory.  They truly know how to service the customer.

Your engine will be equal to or less than this. I would also find a new shop to deal with. Its enough that you lend your airplane for them to rent that they shouldn't cash-generate you out of your plane.

LG

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Re: overhaul

Dear Tom:

I am an attorney in Bend, Oregon, working on a case involving instructor pilots who were flying Cessna aircraft for a flight school and were fired after they complained that the aircraft were not airworthy because the aircraft were more than 2,000 TBO.  I would be interested in talking with you about whether you could serve as an expert witness in the case. 

My phone: 541-385-3017.
This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

Roxanne Farra
Roxanne L. Farra, P.C.
17 N.W. Irving Avenue
Bend, OR  97701

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Re: overhaul

Good luck with that.  There is nothing that says that a flight school, or a private owner for that matter can't go past TBO.  As long as the engine is still good, you can keep flying it.  I currently know of a 172 with 3000 hours on the engine and it flies every day.  Engine is still strong and no problems or worries.

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Re: overhaul

I have a 2002 cessna 172-s (180hp) that needs overhaul. currently located in Kentucky. Does anyone have an advise re reliable place to get it done in KY, OH, IN, MI, IL? And do I need to get the prop overhaul/changed too? Thanks.

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Re: overhaul

Yeah, there is nothing that says you have to comply with the TBO, it is in fact a [u]Recommended[u] overhaul time, unless you have it on a 135 certificate.  Now, I have always pulled engines for overhaul once they reach 20% past the recommended TBO.  You can fly the plane til the thing stops running, but the problem is, even thought you may have had a top overhaul, or whatever, the cam lobes still get worn down, now your valves arent opening all the way, your not developing the power you should.

Western Skyways in Montrose CO is a superb engine shop.  I have been Director of Maintenance at several flight schools over the years as well ,and I have purchased approximately 15 engines from them in the last 14 years.  They do excellent work, customer service is great, the warranty is great.  As far as an engine shop near you DR, Im not sure I can recommend any.  All my work and customer experiences have been in the Northwest, as I am in Utah.  Good luck to you, I can only recommend you find a trade a Plane and look up some shops in there.  If its a constant speed prop, then definitely yes get it overhauled as well.

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Re: overhaul

"Yeah, there is nothing that says you have to comply with the TBO, it is in fact a [u]Recommended[u] overhaul time, unless you have it on a 135 certificate. Now, I have always pulled engines for overhaul once they reach 20% past the recommended TBO. You can fly the plane til the thing stops running, but the problem is, even thought you may have had a top overhaul, or whatever, the cam lobes still get worn down, now your valves arent opening all the way, your not developing the power you should."


This is true, however, these days you might want to check your insurance policy as some insurers are now requiring that the engine be overhauled AT TBO for the policy to be renewable.

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Re: overhaul

cOULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT CONSTITUTES A NEW cONTINENTAL 0-200 CYLINDER? I UNDERSTAND IT IS A CYLINDER ASSEMBLY, NOT JUST A BARE CYLINDER. COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT A CYLINDER ASSEMBLY CONSISTS OF?
LASTLY PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE BALL PARK COST WOULD BE TO REMOVE AN OLD CYLINDER AND REPLACE WITH A NEW ONE INCLUDING LABOUR?
Looking forward to hearing from you ASAP before I buy a used Cessna 150
Yours sincerely,
Tom Ingle   (private pilot)

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