172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>I am a first time owner and purchased my plane in May. The POH which came with the plane was a photocopy and doesn't have any amendments or attachments for speeds, take off, landing, cruise, climb as a result of the 180 HP Avcon conversion turning a Hartzell CS prop. Anyone know where I might get this information?

Also, I have heard of Gross Weight increases available for Penn Yan and Airplains 180 HP conversions, but none for Avcon. Has anyone any experience or knowledge on getting the weight increase with the Avcon conversion.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Contact http://www.cessnaparts.com for a new POH.
Why don't you get Avcon's information directly from the horses mouth by contacting them.  Your FSDO can provide you with their address, or you may look it up on the web or at the FAA site, http://www.faa.gov/</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>i have a 172L 180hp avcon cov. and you wont get any  of that info from them.
they were never req. to supply it at the time of there stc.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>  Thirdhand, I thought the Gross weight increase was also due to the 30 flap limitation?  Hmmm...the new 172s have a gross weight increase too, but they all have 30 flaps.

Mark</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Mark, the AirPlains gross weight increase STC does require modifications so that flaps are limited to a maximum of 30 degrees.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Mark, when I'm on floats my flaps are limited to 30 degrees. I Just put it on wheels for the winter and had the limiter removed so now have 40 degrees. It will go back on in the spring after the 'melt'. It is not a big deal to limit the flap travel.
Bruce</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Hi George,
I have just contacted Avcon Industries by email and will see what they come up with. There web site does not offer any information on the STC for this conversion. If I have no success there I'll try the feds. Thanks for your response.
Bruce</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Hi Ron,
Have you been able to collect any data on the performance figures and engine settings since owning the plane? Take off / Landing run / roll, climb rates, cruise speeds, etc., would be very useful.
Bruce</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>It's good your looking for this information.   

I thought the information you are looking for is a requirement for aircraft certification and to be legal, not to mention safe to fly.  How did it get through all those inspections, etc.... never mind.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>I have the Air Plains conversion on my 82 172P with a fixed prop. Get the 172Q operating handbook it wiil be close enough--cost less the 20 bucks.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Good Question. Perhaps 20 years ago, when the conversion was done on my airplane, the purpose of performance data had a different audience.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Thanks, Ernie, I'll get a copy of the 'Q' series.
Bruce</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Bruce:

I would advise against getting a handbook or operating manual that is "close enough" to your aircrafts operating limitations.  Per FAR 43.5c and 91.9a, your aircraft is required to be operated IAW the changes that were made to your aircraft, and not operated to a manual that is close enough to your configuration.  When your aircraft was altered, the operating limitations were changed.  If it was accomplished IAW an STC, there should be approved operating limitations included in the STC paperwork. 

Sal</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Hmmm...

  The only thing that has to be with the airplane is the operating LIMITAIONS (Airplane Flying Handbook, pg. 2-2).  So if the new engine only makes everything better (climb, T/O, etc.) I can see why there'd be no need to modify that section.

  ...with one caveat...fuel burn is different.  But I think the exact same engine and prop, on ANY plane, with the exact same power setting, should be able to use the exact same fuel burn and power charts.

  So if you can find a POH for a plane with the same engine and prop, you're all set for fuel limitations if you get that POH.
Use the POH for your plane for all the other stuff (Va, T/O, ldg distances, stall speeds, etc.), even though it may be too conservative...

  Hmm...it makes sense since the limitations section really looks like airframe stuff, not powerplant stuff...they seem to be quite separable...

Mark</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>No, Mark, that's not the best answer.  The best answer is to determine if the airplane has an FAA approved flight manual,  and to make certain it is onboard the aircraft prior to flight. 
  Earlier Cessnas had what was commonly known as "Pilot's Operating Handbook" or "Owner's Manual", neither of which was an FAA approved document.  Neither of which had any legal basis either.  They were typically printed by the Cessna Marketing department and full of optimistic data.
  The only binding document is the FAA approved Flight Manual (if existant) and it would most likely be required to be onboard during flight.  Check the Type Certificate Data Sheet of the airplane.  It will be the final authority.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>"must be on board the airplane when operated..."

"Operating limitations.  These may take the form of an FAA-approved AFM/POH, placards, and instrument markings, or any combination of the above."

AFH page 2-2. 

So I'm not sure that's the BEST answer (having the factory test pilot ride shotgun may be that), but this is what the FAA and the PTS teach.  If anyone has another reference, I'm interested...there must be some source for this AFH verbiage...


Mark</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>Aha...CFR 91.9 seems to provide lots of info.

It seems to say an AFM or 121.141(b) AFM is needed if required by 21.5,

and if not required by 21.5, then AFM, "approved manual material", markings, and/or placards are sufficient.

So 121.141(b) is airline stuff I think (don't have it with me), so most of us probably don't care aboout that part...

What does 21.5 say?  Dunno.  Don't have it here.  But if I recall, it's something about really old airplanes didn't have an AFM, and didn't have the sections standardized, like "operating limitations."  So the older (before 1970 or so maybe?) airplanes don't need an AFM.  But don't believe me, look it up yourself, and if anyone has a 21.5 handy, tell us what it REALLY says.

Mark</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>So it was 1979!  Pretty close, right?

<http://flight.com/far/viewfar.asp?farID=21

Sec. 21.5  Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

         (a) With each airplane or rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an
       Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior to
       March 1, 1979, the holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental
       Type Certificate) or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available
       to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved
       Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
         (b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of
       this section must contain the following information:
         (1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in
       an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and
       placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or
       rotorcraft was type certificated.
         (2) The maximum ambient atmospheric temperature for which engine cooling
       was demonstrated must be stated in the performance information section of the
       Flight Manual, if the applicable regulations under which the aircraft was
       type certificated do not require ambient temperature on engine cooling
       operating limitations in the Flight Manual.

       [Amdt. 21-46, 43 FR 2316, Jan. 16, 1978]</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>thats what i said in my post . been there done that  RON</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>No, Mark.  1979 is not some magic year prior to which no AFM (Approved Flight Manual) was required.  That reg does not state that aircraft before '79 didn't have to have a AFM.  Re-read the reg you quote and it's meaning will become more apparent.
  That reg places an obligation on manufacturers to develop and provide an approved manual with an aircraft upon delivery to it's owner if they hadn't already done so.  Even if the airplane has not been flown (prior to '79) a AFM MUST be developed and provided to the owner when the aircraft is delivered.  THAT's what the reg says.
 
Example:  My 1953 Cessna 170B has a nice, printed, 80-page or so Owner's Manual.  That manual includes chapters about Limitations, Operating procedures, checklists, servicing, Weight and Balance, etc.etc. 
  It has absolutely NO LEGAL BEARING OR BASIS! Why?  Because it's not an FAA approved document. It doesn't have any approval basis or certification. 

  BUT....there's this little single-sheet typewritten document that has a few limitations and some takeoff/landing performance data and wt and bal. data. on it.  It also has a facsimilie signature of an FAA official on it, and the fine print at the bottom of the document says the document "Must be Kept in the Aircraft". 

  I'll bet you fully half of all the 5,000-plus Cessna 170's in the world do not have this innocuous little paper in them.  That means they are flying ILLEGALLY!  That little one-page document is that airplane's FAA Approved Flight Manual, and it must be onboard the aircraft.  (I keep a copy of mine folded up, and stuck behind the Airwothiness Certificate, and Aircraft Registration certificate in the display holder in the baggage compartment.  If ever I'm ramp-checked that document is onboard the aircraft just like the law says.)

  A "test pilot" will not replace what the law requires.

  So.   Check your TCDS, find out if a AFM applies, purchase one from your mfr. if you don't have one,  and carry it in the airplane.   Just because you have some placards and instrument markings in your cockpit doesn't guarantee that you are in compliance with the law if that AFM exists and isn't onboard.</HTML>

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Re: 172 L with 180 HP Avcon conversion

<HTML>I have the same situation with my 172H avcon converted cessna. I have talked directly with Avcon, they are currently working on the STC for a gross weight increase to 2550 and and updated flight manual to go with it. I don't recall which model they are currently working on, but they were working through all modles one at a time and they said that my 1967 way about 1 year away.

Avcon (1-800-872-0988).

Jackson</HTML>

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