Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Hello all,

Recently sold my cherokee and am now in the process of buying a 180hp Airplains converted 172 M. Any suggestions on what to look for during the pre-purch? Are there any surprises normally associated with the 180 hp mod aircraft? Want to make absolutely sure that the new acquisition will make the flight cross-country to its new home here in Sothern Kalifornia.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight!

Respectfully,

Matt Randolph</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Get a good pre-buy inspection. Focus on the airframe condition first, and work from there. Engines and Avionics can all be replaced for a price. An airframe is priceless. Start with a thorough evaluation of the structure of the aircraft, then the motor, and lastly, evaluate the condition of the avionics and instruments.

That's my .02. I just bought my first aircraft in Jan. A 1959 C-172. I got a good plane at a fair price. I got lucky I guess, because I went into the deal a little blind.

Good Luck.

Jeff</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Same song as always:  There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection.  There is only one inspection that will tell you the legality and airworthiness of an airplane---the ANNUAL inspection.  Pay for one.  You'll be much better off.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Why on earth would anybody get rid of REAL airplane and downgrade to a Cezzna? Does anybody understand the logic of this? I understand that people buy them just because this is what they've learned in, and they don't have the courage to experiment with REAL airplanes. But to already be flying a Piper and then transition to the Boring Ho-Hum "King of Drag" machine, is just beyond me. I really get a kick out of the Cezzna speed mods. There is only one effective Cezzna speed mod: Get rid of it and buy ANY other plane! That would be the ONLY way to reduce Cezzna drag. You should have kept the Cherokee Matt, man will you be dissappointed when you realize that you traded your Corvette for an old beat up Ford pick-up truck.
Regretfully,
Rusty</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Amen - Yaa  should have kept the Piper......</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Oh, goodie.  A religious argument.  Let's try to notch it up a level to some factual information, something sorely lacking in most religious arguments.

Airplane......PA32-301T Saratoga....'85 T210R
75% Cruise....165 knots..............207 knots
Engine........Lyc TIO-540-S1AD.......Cont TSIO-520-CE
HP............300....................325
Stall.........58.....................55
Range.........627nm..................705nm
Serv Ceil.....20 K ft................29 K ft
Empty wt......2003 lbs...............2302 lbs
Gross wt......3600 lbs...............4100 lbs
Useful load...1597 lbs...............1798 lbs</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>..and a couple more parameters:

Airplane...........PA32-301T Saratoga....'85 T210R
Rate of Climb......1075 ft/min............1150 ft/min
Takeoff Distance...1110 ft................740 ft
Landing Distance...732 ft.................520 ft.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>PIPER IS THAT ONE USES A SURPLES TIN CAN FOR THE BRAKE MASTER CYL.??????</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Recycled cans - Good for the environment -  Also, would you rather stand on you head, drop the little yellow plug down and under the rudder pedals or just stand at the firewall and pour some in??????   Whos the smart one???? no brainer.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>(The following offered only in the spirit of a good challenge. )
If Cherokee's were so good, how come they are no longer being made? 
(Could it be the fuel leaks? Or the elevator counterweight tubes that corrode and fall off? [Not to mention the fact that Cessna's don't requre such band-aids for poor elevator design.]   Maybe it's the fact that the brake-pedal system you are so fond of was only on the left side and not for the CFI?  Naw, must be because flight schools decided that they'd rather teach in airplanes that educated students in rudder control, instead of go-cart ground-steering?  Or maybe the flying public finally recognized the more stabil flight characteristics of the Cessna's lower CG with a high wing.  Or perhaps it's the cooler cockpit in a high wing.  Or the more efficient lift-surfaces/aspect ratio of a continuous across-the-cabin wing plan-form of a high-wing.  Or the easier cabin-entry/exit not having to step down into/twist around and climb out of the cabin of a Piper.  Not to mention the difficulty women experience in a skirt requiring a high-step to climb up onto a Piper wing.  Or the damage high-heels do to the wing surface.  Or the fact that the wing in a Piper is ALWAYS carrying the weight of the aircraft even while sitting on the ground because the fuselage sits on the wing, and therefore is continuously stressed.  Or the fact that there's never been a single case of a Cessna strut-braced wing collapsing in flight.  (Piper just WISHES they had that reputation!) 
  Yeah.  The PIper Cherokee strength reputation was so good, they were even offered in AeroBat versions. NOT! 
  I can't spend any more time on this patently ridiculous idea that Piper Cherokees were somehow comparable to Cessna 172/182/206's.  My 2 cents.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Weak statements George!! 

You mean to say the 206 (with one cabin door) doesnt cause a problem with skirts and high heels???   How about a Cessna 120 - is that better?

Fuselage sitting on wing?? ...wing sitting on fuselage, sitting on gear sitting on ground...So?

Cessna's are never corroded?

I think too much time has been spent on this  - lets enjoy the airplanes..It's all in fun!!  Not worth 2 cents.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>I guess I'm odd guy out.  I like them both.  I even like the Tomahawk.  J-3 cub vs. 120?  Totally different and both do well what they were made to do.

Both companies have cheap parts (compared to Mooney or GASP Beech), both planes are utterly simple, and both do what they do well.

But I've found the pipers DO get more out of speed mods, but don't climb as well or land as slow.  Cessna's climb better and land slower, but are slow bug smashers.

I'm really talking 172 vs. warrior.  I don't really like the older cherokee (hershey bar).  They're a little funky.

But I think these planes appeal to totally different personalities, so I'm not surprised at the discussion.

I would say for pretty good room, two doors, super slow landing at short strips with clutter, and SLOOOOWWW forward progress, my 172 has been great, but there are times I would've liked the extra range and speed of a warrior instead.

172 = country plane
warrior = city plane

do you prefer peanut butter or chocolate?

Mark</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>I THINK YOUR BACKWORDS , PUMP THE FLUED UP FROM THE WHEEL CYL.
AND JUST LOOSEN THE LITTLE YELLOW PLUG.    NO BRAINER FOR SURE</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>When it comes to Sunday rides, I have found that most non-pilots prefer to ride in a high wing aircraft so they can watch the ground below in fascination. Low wing airplanes block the view of the details directly below. But when it comes to point A to point B, faster is faster.   Joe</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Aww.  I'm only tryin' to rile you up.  (Seems to have worked.) ;Þ

toad wrote: You mean to say the 206 (with one cabin door) doesnt cause a problem with skirts and high heels??? How about a Cessna 120 - is that better?

Fuselage sitting on wing?? ...wing sitting on fuselage, sitting on gear sitting on ground...So?

Cessna's are never corroded?


My answer:  No, I'm talking about the 206's (both versions) that either had TWO doors, one  on each side, or THREE doors, if you include the double-wide utility door on the right.  None of them have ever had a high-heel punch through their wing skins. 

  A low wing airplane's wing is always carrying a 1-G load.  It never is relieved of that load.  Even sitting on the ground it still has to support that fuselage and whatever cargo loads are in it.

  All airplanes can corrode.  But Cessna airplanes primary control systems do not suffer from catastrophic failure due to corroded bob-weights like Piper Cherokees did.

  Weak statements?  I don't think so.  These shortcomings of Cherokees has resulted in expensive damage for their owners and if you want to take the situation to it's ultimate conclusion bear this in mind.  Cessnas designs have been so successful that they are still in produciton and have enjoyed a continuing new parts availability.  Some parts may be expensive, but Cessna still will make them.  Many older Piper/Cherokee parts can only be found in a junk yard.  If you're lucky.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>High wing, low wing?  ever see a low wing bird?</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Yep, this josting is fun but also not to much here to Rile anything but the poor folks who get lured into reading this great stuff.. Anyways,  maybe the major airline builders will read this and start making high wing jetliners and high wing fighters.. NOT! ..There are plenty of high wing helicopters  -</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Airline passengers psychologically depend on seeing something beneath them to "hold them up" according to airframe marketing people.  I hardly think airline passengers are knowlegeable enough to rely on their judgement as for what makes aerodynamic sense.  Low wing airplanes generally make better GROUND vehicles (that's why their usually a little easier to taxi).  The NUMBER ONE reason airliners are predominately low-wing is because it's simpler and cheaper to make a retractible landing gear fit a low wing airplane, and in larger aircraft they're simpler for over-the-wing ground-service such as re-fueling and de-icing and for pre-flight inspections.
  But the most efficient wing is a high wing, if you intend to fly instead of taxi.  (The continuous upper airfoil is not interrupted by a fuselage like a low wing is.  High wing is also more stabil in flight.  THAT's why helicopters are suspended beneath their flying surfaces, along with reasons of simplicity.)  Not only is it more stabil, but the high wing is also easier to make stronger due to simpler unit carry-through.  The really HEAVY lifter's out there are high wing.  Look at any AN-124, AN-225, C-5A Galaxy, B-52, C-141Starlifter, or Hercules.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Have you ever seen anybody bust their head open on a Piper wing?</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Ive gotta put my 2 cents worth in.....I believe that northwest flys a fairly new High Wing bird...Dont know what make it is,but it seems to be fairly large,and four power plants.Fairly polpular here in West Tennessee....Concerning the"Head Cracking" I guess it would depend on the"location" of the head.
Mt first(and only) crash was in a Cherokee 140,to make a long story short,.the Pilot hit an electric fence cable strung across the runway numbers in Dalhart Texas.Needless to say,the plane was toast,and trying to get out of that ONE door in a hurry,was a booger.I kinda wonder if we,d been flying a High Wing plane we might have seen it before impact.Im NOT blaming the Aircraft... I must admitt,the Tomahawk(no longer made) had a great visibility angle,and other than the fact that it flew like a rock,seemed to be an attractive bird.Even if you did have to have a ladder to do a proper pre-flight.
Bottom line, I enjoy my little 150,but if I had had the same opportunity to buy a piper  under the same circumstances,Id have considered it.Cessna parts seem to be much more readily available...Kinda like the small block chevy parts.

Tailwinds to all</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Matt, I don't know why so many Piper guys are on a Cessna web site !! Must be hoping to fly a good airplane some day !!

I would like to ask you a favour. If you buy that 172 with the 180 HP conversion and it has the proper docs regarding performance, I will appreciate getting a copy from you and will gladly pay the costs of having a copy made and mailing it to me. I am the one without any legal, or otherwise, performance specs for my Avcon converted 172-L. I bought it here in Canada in May. I've put on about 90 hours and regardless of what the Piper guys say, it's a great plane !

Bruce</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Alan, that little tin-can trainer Piper made is commonly called a "Trauma-hawk" for good reason.  If you want an exciting research project, look into it's stall/spin characteristics and fatal accident history.  I'll never be seen in one again after I did a test flight in one.</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>George,
I never flew in one,I heard horror stories about them.It just seemed like the up/and forward visibilty in one of them should be fantastic,I did hear aboit the spin/Stall situation and something about Magneto seals popping on climb out killing quite a few.

tailwinds my friend</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Bruce--get a 172Q book--it has all the numbers for your 180 hp plane</HTML>

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Re: Bye bye Cherokee, hello 180 hp 172

<HTML>Well for getting into and out of the Cardinal 177 series I have found to be the best. The rear seat passengers also have it good and they have plenty of leg room. Get in and out easier than getting into your car. You don't even have to step up on a step, just sit on the seat and swing legs in. The 180 HP make for a great flying plane. Sits low easy to taxi, great visiblity. So you carry a short step ladder to check the fuel.


Bill</HTML>

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