oil analysis results

oil analysis results

<HTML>I have had a problem with abnormal oil analysis on an ongoing basis, and my A&P really does not have a plan of action for this.
I bought the airplane with a 0 hour factory remnan, The first analysis (Sept. 1999) was normal.

At the 100 hours TT, 50 hour oil change, analysis was done by CTC. Wear metals were reported high, Possibly normal break-in:
Iron: 122, Chromium 29, Aluminium 28, Nickel 29.

At an oil change 27 hours later, values were again normal

50 hours later, at 205 hours TT on the engine, the techs forgot to get a sample and got one by squeezing out oil from the filter. That sample was abnormal with wear metals high suggesting possible cylinder wear and piston scuffing. Silicon was also high and they suggested inductiion system inspection. The induction system was normal. No metal chips were found in the filter. 
Iron: 230, Chromium 21, Aluminium 39, Nickel 35 silicon 26.

the next oil analysis was skipped..

My shop then changed labs, to AOA in Phoenix
Analysis was done at an oil change at 47 hours (253 hours):
Iron: 229, Chromium 21, Aluminium 31, Nickel 54 silicon 15 (normal).
Again the suggestion was to repeat the sample.

My last analysis is just completed and is again abnormal, with no chips in the filter, and interpreted as possible cylinder/valve guide wear. Engine time is 310 hours.
Iron: 150, Chromium 13, Aluminium 23, Nickel 26 silicon 14.

My mechanic want to repeat the sample at 15 mor hours, but when asked is not sure what to do if the values are still high.

Can you help?
The engine is on TCM's Top Care program.
It is usually flown at least once a week. It has been on several long trips including the east coast, florida, texas and California.
I use an engine analyizer. I lean to 50 degrees rich of peak as limited by the CHT's. I keep the CHT's always below 450 and I try to keep them under 400.

<<Mike>></HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>Mike:
You are so far off on explaining anything that one can only guess that this is your style. You cannot continue on this road when it comes to airplanes and in dealing with the clowns that call themselves mechanics. Get some good books on the subject and either swing some wrenches or generate a questioniare for the so called a&p's.  I'll refer to your comments for continuity:  YOU SAY...

I have had a problem with abnormal oil analysis on an ongoing basis, and my A&P really does not
have a plan of action for this.(HE IS NOT YOUR A&P ANYMORE...END OF STORY)

I bought the airplane with a 0 hour factory remnan (YOUR ARE NOT ADDRESSING ANOTHER IMPORTANT PARAMETER: TIME.  HOW OLD WAS THE ENGINE), The first analysis (Sept. 1999) was normal (WRONG: THE FIRST IS NEVER NORMAL.  NORMAL IS A TREND DEVELOPED OVER HUNDREDS OF HOURS AFTER BREAK IN)

At the 100 hours TT, 50 hour oil change, analysis was done by CTC. Wear metals were reported high,
Possibly normal break-in:
Iron: 122, Chromium 29, Aluminium 28, Nickel 29.
(WRONG AGAIN.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN 100 HOUR BREAK IN PERIOD)

At an oil change 27 hours later, values were again normal (IBID)

50 hours later, at 205 hours TT on the engine, the techs forgot to get a sample and got one by
squeezing out oil from the filter. That sample was abnormal with wear metals high suggesting possible
cylinder wear and piston scuffing. Silicon was also high and they suggested inductiion system
inspection. The induction system was normal. No metal chips were found in the filter.
Iron: 230, Chromium 21, Aluminium 39, Nickel 35 silicon 26.
(THESE ARE NOT TECHS.  THEY ARE CLOWNS.  WHAT WERE THEY TRYING TO MEASURE THE EFFICIENCY OF THE OIL FILTER.  IT SHOULD BE HIGH IN THE FILTER...GET IT!!! THIS IS GOOD.)

the next oil analysis was skipped.. (BY WHOM...YOU?)

My shop (ARE THIS THE SAME JOKERS?) IF SO YOU ARE THE CLOWN.  SO QUIT CLOWNING AROUND) then changed labs, to AOA in Phoenix
Analysis was done at an oil change at 47 hours (253 hours):
Iron: 229, Chromium 21, Aluminium 31, Nickel 54 silicon 15 (normal).
Again the suggestion was to repeat the sample.

My last analysis is just completed and is again abnormal, with no chips in the filter, and interpreted as
possible cylinder/valve guide wear. Engine time is 310 hours.
Iron: 150, Chromium 13, Aluminium 23, Nickel 26 silicon 14.

My mechanic want to repeat the sample at 15 mor hours, but when asked is not sure what to do if the
values are still high.

Can you help? (NO, BUT YOU CAN...)
The engine is on TCM's Top Care program.
It is usually flown at least once a week. It has been on several long trips including the east coast,
florida, texas and California.
I use an engine analyizer. I lean to 50 degrees rich (THIS IS ABOUT THE HOTTEST AND WORST WAY TO RUN THE ENGINE)of peak as limited by the CHT's. I keep the CHT's
always below 450 (THAT'S KIND OF YOU) HOW ABOUT UNDER 400 TO SAY THE LEAST) and I try to keep them under 400 (NOW SAY 360)

HAPPY DAYS,
MARSHALL D.</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>Gee, Marshall, Why don't you just quit mincing your words and just let 'im have it with both barrels?  (grin)</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>Sounds like rocker shafts wearing which is not unusual nor will it cause a problem Charlie Melot Zephyr Aircraft Engines</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>Try to keep it friendly and helpful. The few words by a real expert here gave sufficient info. I'm sure you could be humiliated by someone about something you are trying to learn.

Jim</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>I've never subscribed to the idea of running clean oil thru a dirty filter (which already had half-a-quart of dirty oil in it.) I always change my filter when I change my oil, not only for that reason, but also to cut it open and look for ferrous metal or large pieces of copper/bronze/aluminum. That's the cheapest and most reliable "oil analysis" available. (Think about this: Oil Analysis labs charge more than an oil-filter costs, about $19-$39, depending upon which lab, to tell you what you already know, namely that there are trace amounts of various metals and dirt (silicon) in your oil. By the time something wrong has distributed serious amounts of internal parts into the oil, the engine has begun to shed parts and must be repaired/overhauled anyway. When I was chief pilot of an AMEX subsidiary we sampled everything in the fleet because the parent company mx chief said to. The only two engine failures we had in flight were on engines that had fresh oil analysis that was a happy report! Our local mechanic found one engine which was about to seize (!) 15 hours before the next oil analysis was due! (While performing a preflight, a pilot had noticed a "metallic paint" look to the oil on the dipstick, the mechanic pulled the filter and found it full of ground up metal.) When the engine was disassembled, it was estimated that the engine may have lasted through one more takeoff, but probably not!
I ordered all oil analysis stopped and the company (and myself) has saved a fortune in unspent oil-analysis fees since.  (To this date, not one internal engine problem has been undiscovered at that flight dept. in a timely fashion using cut-open-the-can techniques. My personal observation and 2 cents.) So, ...I always change the filter and cut it open.
  Also, as regards oil analysis:....
   Oil analysis was originally popularized by turbine engine operators when those engines first appeared in the civilian market.  The cost of engine/overhauls/repairs was such that a "fear" mentality pervaded the industry, and oil analysis which had proven effective in industial use was applied to aircraft turbines.   Someone along the way thought of applying it to reciprocating engines, and marketing experts have promoted it for that use.  Many people think it will save them a lot of money or a catastrophic engine failure,....(not very likely in my opinion).  But if you do decide to spend your money on oil analysis, keep the following points in mind.
  1.  Follow your analysis program/laboratory procedure exactly.
  2.  Sample the oil at regular intervals, and in the manner prescribed by your analysis program.
  3.  If you miss a sample, then simply skip it.  Change your oil anyway, and pick up at the next sampling period.  Do not take a sample out of cycle and expect it to be meaningful data.
  4.  Remember that analysis is only a "trend monitoring" procedure.  Despite what program promoters say, there is no magic about oil analysis,...it will not be likely to save you from initiating a flight that is likely to result in catastrophic engine failure.
  5.  Understand that any changes to a strict regimen in techniques will void your analysis program and simply make all your investment in that program a waste of your time and money.  A simple thing such as an engine air-filter change, will result in a change of the silicon level in the next oil analysis.  A leaking airbox (which most airplanes with any time on them undoubtedly have) will increase silicon levels.  Silicon is dirt.  It wears out engines.  (You needed a laboratory to tell you this?)
  New engines have high wear patterns during break-in.  Oil analysis figures will frighten you at that stage of your engine's life.  Unless it continues and never drops off, then ignore it.  If after 200 hours it actually INCREASES,  then you definitely have a problem with a new engine.  Pull into the best engine shop you can find and have it fixed (hopefully under warranty).    Even if you disagree with me regarding the usefulness/uselessness of oil analysis,  after the first few hundred hours of oil analyis demonstrate that the new engine has settled down,...then you have probably gotten the most possible out of that sort of program.  The only thing likely to occur later is slowly varying metals and silicon, until the engine gets high time on it.
   Your best method to avoid engine trouble is to follow engine manufacturer's maintenance recommendations, including all service letters and bulletins, regular oil changes (that include filter examination), and proper overhaul/rebuild techiniques and procedures and times, using reputable shops.  AND,  complete and thorough pre-flight inspections as suggested by engine/airframe manufacturers.</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>Mr. Horn, you forgot to mention in your best ways to avoid engine trouble to not use mogas!  (smile)

Great advice, I appreciate your depth of information. Thank you for participating.</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>I must concur with Mr. Horn in that oil analysis is a tool that must be used on a regular basis to be truly useful along with filter inspections and differential compression readings. Combined they can foretell of pending problems(excess valve guide wear-oil analysis), (low compression-weak rings), (metal flakes-imminent failure) for example. I might be inclined to agree with Marshall D. that you consider a new mechanic, but he might consider the same solution due to his flap problem. Since this forum is about learning and sharing maybe Mr. D has a bigger problem.</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

<HTML>
Guys, in defense of Mr. D.: I know very little and ask rookie questions but I am more interested in information than I am tact.
If you make a response that is fervent, even a little crass, I welcome it because that represents not only your expertise but expenditure of your energy. I reckon the intensity of your sponse to be relevant; consistent with the importance of what you say and meant to save me money and headaches. This type of response is easy to distinguish from a real insult. Ken</HTML>

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Re: oil analysis results

Where I can find the TCM and Lycoming piston engines oil analysis values, what is the normal particles concentration per millimeters that show me that my engine is normal or critical.

REGARDS


ALEX

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