Carb heat while cruising

Carb heat while cruising

Yesterday, I flew a short cross country flight in my 1967 Skyhawk and used a bit of carb heat for the entire trip which I have never had to do before.  When we departed (1400’) the temp on the ground was -14F and when we got to our cruising altitude (5000’) the temp was +10F.  The engine ran bit rough and adjusting the mixture did not smooth it out so tried the carb heat and found that pulling it out about 1/4 of the way made the engine happy.  There were several areas with low clouds along our route.  My thoughts are that there was an inversion with moisture at the higher altitudes that was causing carb ice.

Living in northern Minnesota, I fly in the cold a lot and have never encounter this before.  Each time I get fuel I put ¼ - ½ cup of alcohol in each tank so I don’t think this was a fuel condensation problem.  I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.

Lenny

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Lenny:

I doubt you had carb ice.  Unlikely.  Here's my take on what was happening (which was, in fact, quite predictable).

The very cold OAT had the fuel very cold as well.  It was so cold as to not be atomizing very well through the venturi of the carburetor and even worse, wasn't vaporizing very well after that.  As the fuel travels to the cylinders in large, medium, and small droplets, some cylinders get a richer F:A ratio while others get a leaner F:A ratio.  This makes the engine run rough.  As you added carb heat, the fuel was becomeing better vaporized.  This evened out the F:A ratios and smoothed out the "feel" as the horsepowers being produced by the various cylinders came closer to being balanced.

I generally cruise with carb heat to attain this effect so I can run a carbureted engine smoothly lean of leak EGT.

Walter Atkinson
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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Well, here's the message without the typos and misspellings!

Lenny:

I doubt you had carb ice.  Unlikely.  Here's my take on what was happening (which was, in fact, quite predictable).

The very cold OAT had the fuel very cold as well.  It was so cold as to not be atomizing very well through the venturi of the carburetor and even worse, wasn't vaporizing very well after that.  As the fuel travels to the cylinders in large, medium, and small droplets, some cylinders get a richer F:A ratio while others get a leaner F:A ratio.  This makes the engine run rough.  As you added carb heat, the fuel was becoming better vaporized.  This evened out the F:A ratios and smoothed out the "feel" as the horsepowers being produced by the various cylinders came closer to being balanced.

I generally cruise with carb heat to attain this effect so I can run a carbureted engine smoothly lean of peak EGT.

Walter Atkinson
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Re: Carb heat while cruising

"Each time I get fuel I put ¼ - ½ cup of alcohol in each tank so I don’t think this was a fuel condensation problem. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this."


I wouldnt advise the use of alcohol. Even with the auto fuel STC, it is banned from use as an additive.

Regards
JimJ

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

That's interesting.  The FBO and almost everyone else I know here uses alcohol to stop the formation of ice fuel supply.  In fact, we just had a Wings Saftey program about cold weather flying and the use of alcohol was recomended.  I guess I will have to check into it a bit more.

Thanks
Lenny

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Lenny:

The use of very small quantities of alcohol are not a problem.  The addition of it as in gasohol are forbidden, because at those high levels it will destroy rubber parts and O-rings.  It also alters the octane rating.

Jim is right. It is not a good idea as an additive, but in very small quantities as you are using, it does help in keeping water from falling out of suspension and freezing.

Another reason I live in Louisiana!  <g>

Walter Atkinson
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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Hi,
In the winter, after getting my aircraft set up for cruise, I generally set my carb heat to +10 degrees. I have heard that the O-470-R engine in my 182E is susceptible to carb heat problems, and so I set the +10 degrees for peace of mind as much as for preventing icing.
Glenn

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

I use carb heat while cruising even in the summer because of the increased atomization of the fuel mix,unless reduced power levels are of some consideration.The engine in my plane is the 0-300 Cont.which I understand is plauged by carb ice problems,although I have not experieced any of these problems.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

According to BP aviation... Small amounts are OK, depending on operational requirments and under "strict control". Can anyone define what a small amount is and/or what the operational requirments are? I cannot.  They also state that concentrated amounts are determential to the engine, which I am sure Lycoming or Continential would take a similar position.

Therefore you would be operating the aircraft contrary to manufacturers recommendations. In the event of a mishap, lawyers and or insurance companies would have a field day. Blending of fuels is a science, not to be left to a rule of thumb or guesswork.
_____________________________________________________
(cut and paste)
No ethers or alcohols are allowed in the blend as these have a low energy content and would reduce the range of aircraft. This is also captured in a minimum energy specification for AVGAS – there is no such specification for Mogas. After manufacture, small amounts of approved ethers and alcohols may be added as fuel system anti-icing additives. However, this is strictly controlled to meet particular operational requirements. High concentration of alcohols can attack fuel system components and cause seal swelling/failure. They can entrain water into the fuel and promote phase separation into water + alcohol/fuel phases, which may cause engine failure. AVGAS specifications help protect the aviator from these hazards. AVGAS, and other aviation fuels, are very carefully controlled at the refinery and in the distribution system to ensure no contamination by other products

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

* I set the +10 degrees for peace of mind as much as for preventing icing.*

Not only are you accomplishing your goal, you are evening out the F:A ratios between the cylinders and that is good for your engine.  Running 10dC in winter is just as good as running 10dC in the summer.

Good on ya!

Walter Atkinson
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Re: Carb heat while cruising

I don't know how to express this without appearing poorly, so I'll just be very blunt:  A certain "engine operations expert" who frequently promotes "symposiums" and other "educational seminars" and who visits this forum, whose opinions are posted here with such convincing verbage , frequently offers totally incorrect and downright dangerous mis-information at this forum. 
I caution all who read this fool's words to compare them to known and trusted aviation sources. 

"JimJ (---.mia.bellsouth.net)"....I salute your efforts to disseminate useful and correct information.  YOU are correctly pointing out that alcohol is not suitable in aircraft fuel systems.  (Regardless of what BP's person may have said however, no amount of alcohol should be added by the consumer to fuel intended for aircraft use, nor should any other fuel anti-icing additives be utilized unless they are specifically labelled by their manufacturer for aircraft use in combination with avgas.)
Anti-icing additives are not for the purpose of "improving" fuel or engine performance in cold weather except insofar as they will prevent the formation of ice (from frozen water) in fuel.  Ice particles in fuel may clog filters and screens and may reduce fuel flow.  It may also freeze drains and valves preventing their operation.  Anti-icing additives in aviation fuel are designed to prevent the formation of ice in fuel systems especially in aircraft operated at very high altitude for long flights where fuel temperatures may reach sub-zero levels. (I've operated aircraft above the tropopause where after several hours of flight in outside air temps of -50 degrees centigrade, I've observed fuel temps below -30 degrees centigrade.)  It is NOT ALCOHOL that consumers may purchase over the counter.
  Common alcohols (such as isopropyl, ethanol, methanol, etc.) are prohibited in aircraft fuel and fuel systems.  They will absorb water and may precipitate water in flight causing engine failure.  They are also corrosive and damage fuel system components.
  Lenny, you should stop using alcolhol in your aircraft and you should drain all alcohol-laden fuel from your system and purge the system.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

P.S.-Fuel anti-icing additives do not affect, prevent, or do anything else relative to carburetor ice or icing.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

The thought of alcohol in my Av fuel would scare the stuffin's out of me.
I know they add it to auto fuel tanks to "dry out" he tank.  It doesn't dry it out, it mixes with the water and eventually gets gobbled up.  that's not much of a problem in a car.
I don't know what the freezing temp of alcohol is, but I do know that alcohol mixed with water makes for a nice soft "ice pack"  It slushes up real well.  That's because something in the mix is FREEZING somewhere between 10º and 20ºF above zero.  I can easily visualize alcohol in the wing tanks finding whatever moisture it can and having those little ice crystals decide to goober up that little screen in the fuel tanks and stopping the fuel flow.
also...wouldn't the lower vapor pressure of alcohol increase the cooling effect going through a carb and increase the likelyhood of carb ice?
I might be wrong about my impression of alcohol in gas, but I'd sure hate to find out that I was right, the hard way.
My vote is for blue skies and warm weather!  :-)
Michael

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Hi George!

Thanks for the info.  Several years ago we had a pilot do a forced landing when the OAT was about –20F because of engine failure.  It was determined that the fuel filter was full of ice crystals.  The plane was a rental and the FBO started putting alcohol in their planes fuel tanks in the winter.  I used to rent from the FBO and don’t ever recall that they ever topped the fuel off after flights.  They would fuel the plane when someone wanted to rent it, which could be as seldom as one or two weeks.  Condensation?

My question to you is, other that keeping the tanks full to prevent condensation is there anything else that can be done to prevent the formation of ice crystals in the fuel supply?

Thanks
Lenny

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Author: Lenny (---.112.126.209.stc.mn.charter.com)
Date:   01-21-04 07:50

Hi George!

Thanks for the info. Several years ago we had a pilot do a forced landing when the OAT was about –20F because of engine failure. It was determined that the fuel filter was full of ice crystals. The plane was a rental and the FBO started putting alcohol in their planes fuel tanks in the winter. I used to rent from the FBO and don’t ever recall that they ever topped the fuel off after flights. They would fuel the plane when someone wanted to rent it, which could be as seldom as one or two weeks. Condensation?

My question to you is, other that keeping the tanks full to prevent condensation is there anything else that can be done to prevent the formation of ice crystals in the fuel supply?

Thanks
Lenny

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

George,

I am sure the engineers at BP have the ability to "strictly control" the content of alcohol in the fuel they manufacture. My bet is that the content is measured in PPM, which I doubt too many pilots here have the ability measure. I doubt that climbing up on the wing with a dixie cup, is what they meant by "Small amounts are OK, depending on operational requirements and under "strict control".

JimJ

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

George:

*P.S.-Fuel anti-icing additives do not affect, prevent, or do anything else relative to carburetor ice or icing.*

That is true.  That was not the issue at hand.  The issue was water droplets freezing in the fuel lines as water settles out or possibly freezing as tiny droplets and clogging a fuel filter. 

These events have happened and are a very real issue in cold climates.  They have been identified as the cause of accidents in NTSB investigations over the years.  A very very small amount of alcohol added to the fuel helps eliminate this problem by keeping the water disolved and has been a successful procedure for decades.  In this instance it is not considered an additive and is certainly not the same as using gasohol, which I think we all agree is a very bad idea in an aviation engine.

I do not understand why anyone would find the presentation of data-backed information so upsetting.  We find it unfortunate that so many Old Wive's Tales are disseminated without substantiation.

You may have seen the recent article about my partners and I in the Feb. issue of Private Pilot Magazine.  There was recently a similar article in Cessna Owners by Kevin Knight and there will be other articles in AOPA and Air & Space Smithsonian very soon.  So far, these people, from very reputable magazines, have found the information quite accurate and the education well worth the time and expense. 

The FAA Engine Directorate people have seen our data.  The people who are in charge of writing the FAA questions for the airman and A&P tests attended our seminar last weekend.  I have been given the bank of test questions and asked to identify the bad questions and present replacement questions.  Apparantly the FAA must think we know what we are talking about.  That same class included management employees from one of the major aviation engine makers.  They said they learned a lot, really enjoyed the weekend and had not one instance of disagreement with anything we presented.

Your mileage may vary, contents may settle in shipment, do not attempt this at home, closed course, professional driver. 

Walter Atkinson
Advanced Pilot Seminars

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Walter,

Please inform everyone here with what amount of alcohol by volume is safe to use as an additive to avgas?
and which type of alcohol?

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Jim:

The effective amount would depend on the volume of the tank being treated.  A few ounces in 40 gallons would be a mightly small amount to be worried about.  Who cares?

Let's see if I understand the game we're playing?  You are claiming that ANY amount--even on a limited basis--is harmful and might destroy the O-rings, rubber parts, and maybe cause catastrophic engine problems, right?

OK, in that case I'll say----one molecule. 

There has to be a treshhold, right?  Worrying about a couple of ounces in 40 gallons only in the winter time doesn't pass the smell test.  OTOH, I agree that routinely using 10% ethanol as in gasohol would be subject to problems... as we all agree.  Don't we all agree on that?  I think we do, don't we?

Although I don't usually play the *absurd* game, I can be silly, too.  Let's be reasonable.  None of us wants ANY Jet A in our 182 tanks, but an ounce of Jet A in a full tank would be darn hard to notice--even on a very well instrumented test stand.  I wouldn't want to put 5 gallons in it, though. (I've done this on the test stand and know the effects on the combustion event.)

Here's the good news.  YOU don't have to add any at all.  I don't.  I live in the deep south.  I know quite a few Yankees, Canandians and Alaskans who do this regularly and I don't see a rash of NTSB reports blaming, "He put two ounces of ethanol in his gas and it made him crash."

C'mon, guys. This is too silly to waste time on.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Walter, this is not a game! The reason I asked you what you consider an acceptable volume of alcohol and the type alcohol is because of a broad based speculation on your part:

"The use of very small quantities of alcohol are not a problem."

Now, considering that this advice is coming from a respected engine expert, it would tend to convey the message to others that modifying their fuel in an uncontrolled setting is OK.

I posted the opinion of BP, warning of concentrations of alcohol, and the effect of such concentrations. Contained within the cut and pasted information is wordage like: "However, this is strictly controlled to meet particular operational requirements". I asked if such statements from BP could be defined, yet you continued to endorse the practice of modifying fuel by adding alcohol as an acceptable practice. You use scientific terms like "A very very small amount of alcohol". The only basis for your opinion is that "I know quite a few Yankees, Canadians and Alaskans who do this regularly"

Silly game... not. The original poster stated that he adds 4-8 ounces per tank. Assuming this is done when re-fueling, I could easily see that this practice over several months could progressively lead to a very high concentration of un-approved fuel additive. This is a practice I would not endorse.

And last but not least Walter, You’re absolutely right stating that there are probably no NTSB reports of planes going down because "He put two ounces of ethanol in his gas and it made him crash". I would go as far as to say you could find a slew of reports of planes crashing because of fuel contamination other than water or ice.

Regards,
JimJ

PS- since you keep referring to gasohol, on that subject  I would like to add:
There can be alcohol present in some pump gasoline not labeled as gasohol. The auto gas STC also prohibits this fuel. In fact, some states have waived the regulation of labeling fuel pumps for the presence of alcohol oxygenators. Check the department of agriculture in the state you reside for more information, if you’re using the Peterson STC. Don't rely on pump labeling!

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Jim:

<< The original poster stated that he adds 4-8 ounces per tank. Assuming this is done when re-fueling, I could easily see that this practice over several months could progressively lead to a very high concentration of un-approved fuel additive. This is a practice I would not endorse.>>

I agree with that assessment 100%.

<<There can be alcohol present in some pump gasoline not labeled as gasohol. The auto gas STC also prohibits this fuel. In fact, some states have waived the regulation of labeling fuel pumps for the presence of alcohol oxygenators. Check the department of agriculture in the state you reside for more information, if you’re using the Peterson STC. Don't rely on pump labeling!>>

I agree with this assessment 100% as well.

Walter

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

George:

This was posted on the Lancair site this morning.

FYI

******

Hi all,

I just returned from Ada Oklahoma last weekend where I attended the Advanced Pilot Seminar.  It was, without a doubt, the best seminar I have ever atttended on any subject.  George, Walter and John have really put together a profound seminar.

Very professional presentations jam packed with critical information that we all need to operate our engines not only more efficiently, but safer.  You simply won't believe what you will learn, and how much safer you will be flying.  "OWT's"  (Old Wive's Tails) put to rest and buried permanently for each attendee!

Anyone with cooling problems, or anticipating an electronic ignition system desperately needs to attend before making any decisions. GAMI is writing the bible on these two subjects, more information than you could believe!

If I seem impressed, its because they blew my mind with information.  I had heard from others that it was a great seminar, but one simply cannot express the value of attending in an email.

And, no, I don't get a commission.

Ron Brice

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Reading in the last post about burying OWT's. Is it Old Wives Tails or is it Old Wives Tales? (:>)
Great info!
Glenn

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

    {To all: I apologize in advance for the seeming acridity of my comments, but I've found Walter to be so direct with his dangerous advice that I feel compelled to be forthright.  For all the engine expertise which he professes, I cannot help but be amazed at his recent private email to me in which he asked me to explain the difference between radial and horizontally opposed engines.  In his question to me, he said he can understand that engine oil will drain into the upper cylinder of an upside-down radial engine cylinder but he cannot understand why it would not do so in a horizontally opposed cylinder.  I hope that revelation should illustrate to others why I am concerned that he represents himself here as someone with engine expertise, and worse, that he continues to solicit folks to spend money listening to him.}

Anyway....

  The thing most outlandish in the messages you've posted Walter, is your continued un-abashed promotion of the "seminars" for whom you represent to be employed.
  Your msg posted  01-21-04 @ 10:51 continues to offer incorrect and dangerous mis-information as if it were scientifically supported fact.
   I wonder, since you claim to represent them in this conversation:   Does "Advanced Aviation Seminars" share the responsibility for your advice and statement that "...alcohol added to the fuel helps eliminate this problem by keeping the water disolved and has been a successful procedure for decades. In this instance it is not considered an additive ..."   (Huh? It is very curious to me that you don't consider alcohol "added to" fuel an additive.  It is a foolish statement and I feel that it is dangerous advice that carries real liability.)
   Your misunderstanding of the interaction of alcohol and water confounds.  Everything I've read says that alcohol has a strong affinity for water and will attach to it and thereby reduce it's freezing temperature....until the alcohol to water relationship is overwhelmed because of in-accurate dosage.  (Sort of a "You tell me how much water is in the fuel and I'll tell you how much alcohol to add" situation, when ANY added alcohol is bad for aircraft fuel and systems.)
   Invoking the FAA's curiosity and investigation about commercial "seminars" provided by "Advanced Aviation Seminars" does nothing to lend credence to your dangerous personal opinions about adding alcohol to aviation fuel. 
  Walter wrote: "The FAA Engine Directorate people have seen our data."  What data is that Walter?  Your alcohol-additive data?
  If the FAA knew you were holding yourself out to instruct pilots in "correct" engine operatons, and that your instructions were contrary to mfr and FAA approved data...they would be guarranteed to show an interest in it!  That interest would not equate to endorsement! 
  Perhaps we should send them the comments you've posted?  I'm sure THAT would win their approval of "Advanced Aviation Seminars" curriculum!
 
  RE: Your reference to Private Pilot Magazine, Cessna Owner's Magazine, Air and Space, AOPA, etc.....  Are you now representing those publications/groups as endorsing your alcohol statements?  (Or are you noting their coverage of engine leaning techniques and attempting to "borrow" the prestige of that topic coverage in an attempt to transfer it to legitimatize your quite unrelated argument here?)
   Do your associates at "Advanced Aviation Seminars" know that you implicate their support of your advice to add alcohol to fuel?  Bring your associates at "Advanced Aviation Seminars"  to THIS message thread/topic and let them lend their expertise and weight to your position in THIS thread.  (Perhaps you might contact the publications/groups mentioned to confirm their claimed endorsement of and by Walter Atkinson, Advanced Aviation Seminars when he advises to add alcohol to aviation fuels?)
  Do so, and I'll stop critiquing and I'll apologize.   

But WALTER, ...don't ignore the challenge I've just presented you.  Either show up here with your support by your co-workers and claimed supporters of adding alcohol to av-fuel,...or admit your ignorance, retract your statements,  and apologize to everyone here.

   Finally Walter, you posted a testimonial from a "Ron Brice" as regards a "seminar" he attended.  Frankly, I'd be more impressed if Mr. Brice had posted his own testimonial, but even if he had,  ...what possible comparison can the  apple-of leaning techniques have... to the  oranges-of alcohol as a fuel additive?

  Meanwhile, everyone,...Please follow the advice of your checklists and mfr's warnings: Remove all water and contaminates from your fuel before flight.  If you have not removed the water, then you are at risk of it's hazards in flight, including freezing.  Do not add alcohol.  Aircraft screens and filters have excess capacity to accomodate the amounts of ice and particulate matter that can reasonably be expected, but the failure to properly pre-flight your airplane is not overcome by the use of unapproved methods, techniques, and additives.   I personally assume the liabilty for making that statement.

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    {To all: I apologize in advance for the seeming acridity of my comments, but I've found Walter to be so direct with his dangerous advice that I feel compelled to be forthright.  For all the engine expertise which he professes, I cannot help but be amazed at his recent private email to me in which he asked me to explain the difference between radial and horizontally opposed engines.  In his question to me, he said he can understand that engine oil will drain into the upper cylinder of an upside-down radial engine cylinder but he cannot understand why it would not do so in a horizontally opposed cylinder.  I hope that revelation should illustrate to others why I am concerned that he represents himself here as someone with engine expertise, and worse, that he continues to solicit folks to spend money listening to him.}

Anyway....

  The thing most outlandish in the messages you've posted Walter, is your continued un-abashed promotion of the "seminars" for whom you represent to be employed.
  Your msg posted  01-21-04 @ 10:51 continues to offer incorrect and dangerous mis-information as if it were scientifically supported fact.
   I wonder, since you claim to represent them in this conversation:   Does "Advanced Aviation Seminars" share the responsibility for your advice and statement that "...alcohol added to the fuel helps eliminate this problem by keeping the water disolved and has been a successful procedure for decades. In this instance it is not considered an additive ..."   (Huh? It is very curious to me that you don't consider alcohol "added to" fuel an additive.  It is a foolish statement and I feel that it is dangerous advice that carries real liability.)
   Your misunderstanding of the interaction of alcohol and water confounds.  Everything I've read says that alcohol has a strong affinity for water and will attach to it and thereby reduce it's freezing temperature....until the alcohol to water relationship is overwhelmed because of in-accurate dosage.  (Sort of a "You tell me how much water is in the fuel and I'll tell you how much alcohol to add" situation, when ANY added alcohol is bad for aircraft fuel and systems.)
   Invoking the FAA's curiosity and investigation about commercial "seminars" provided by "Advanced Aviation Seminars" does nothing to lend credence to your dangerous personal opinions about adding alcohol to aviation fuel. 
  Walter wrote: "The FAA Engine Directorate people have seen our data."  What data is that Walter?  Your alcohol-additive data?
  If the FAA knew you were holding yourself out to instruct pilots in "correct" engine operatons, and that your instructions were contrary to mfr and FAA approved data...they would be guarranteed to show an interest in it!  That interest would not equate to endorsement! 
  Perhaps we should send them the comments you've posted?  I'm sure THAT would win their approval of "Advanced Aviation Seminars" curriculum!
 
  RE: Your reference to Private Pilot Magazine, Cessna Owner's Magazine, Air and Space, AOPA, etc.....  Are you now representing those publications/groups as endorsing your alcohol statements?  (Or are you noting their coverage of engine leaning techniques and attempting to "borrow" the prestige of that topic coverage in an attempt to transfer it to legitimatize your quite unrelated argument here?)
   Do your associates at "Advanced Aviation Seminars" know that you implicate their support of your advice to add alcohol to fuel?  Bring your associates at "Advanced Aviation Seminars"  to THIS message thread/topic and let them lend their expertise and weight to your position in THIS thread.  (Perhaps you might contact the publications/groups mentioned to confirm their claimed endorsement of and by Walter Atkinson, Advanced Aviation Seminars when he advises to add alcohol to aviation fuels?)
  Do so, and I'll stop critiquing and I'll apologize.   

But WALTER, ...don't ignore the challenge I've just presented you.  Either show up here with your support by your co-workers and claimed supporters of adding alcohol to av-fuel,...or admit your ignorance, retract your statements,  and apologize to everyone here.

   Finally Walter, you posted a testimonial from a "Ron Brice" as regards a "seminar" he attended.  Frankly, I'd be more impressed if Mr. Brice had posted his own testimonial, but even if he had,  ...what possible comparison can the  apple-of leaning techniques have... to the  oranges-of alcohol as a fuel additive?

  Meanwhile, everyone,...Please follow the advice of your checklists and mfr's warnings: Remove all water and contaminates from your fuel before flight.  If you have not removed the water, then you are at risk of it's hazards in flight, including freezing.  Do not add alcohol.  Aircraft screens and filters have excess capacity to accomodate the amounts of ice and particulate matter that can reasonably be expected, but the failure to properly pre-flight your airplane is not overcome by the use of unapproved methods, techniques, and additives.   I personally assume the liabilty for making that statement.

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