Carb heat while cruising

Re: Carb heat while cruising

Pardon me, I meant to type "Advanced Pilot Seminars" in previous comments.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Ya'know, Both of you guys are talking way over my head. If I need to know all this stuff (which I don't and really don't want to), then I had better hang up my prop right now and watch you guys fly...

I have done a lot of hangar listening and never felt this stupid.. It's evident George and Walter are having issues - but take them outside and settle them  - I doubt you can settle them on this forum.. A lot of folks may be afraid to chime in on any subject unless they have an engineering degree in everything PLUS Aviation.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Hi Gang,
   I've been following this thread pretty closely and have a little bit to add.
   I have a pretty good selection of tech manuals for all flavors of engines and airframes in my shop. I don't have advanced degrees in engineering nor do I profess to be Chuck Yeagers mentor....I'm just another I.A. who spends every day in the G.A. trenches trying to keep these things safe and reliable so my customers can come back to spend more money.
   What I do have is a pretty sound understanding of the systems that have to sing together to make the prop turn. I've poured over all my "secret" stash of tech tips and ops manuals and just can't seem to find a reference for metering alcohol into fuel systems to defeat the effects of water in fuel. I have this cool little gadget...made out of clear plastic and it even has a little reversable screwdriver on the pointy end.....you just push the open end of this thing up on the "drains" under the wings and this smelly, blue stuff comes out. Rolling around towards the bottom of the clear plastic thingy will often be a little liquid globule of other stuff that your engine probably doesn't want to eat....so dispose of this foul elixer in an appropriate manner and repeat this "drain" technique until just smelly, blue stuff comes out. Then pull the little white handle up front and kill the weeds under your airplane for a few seconds or, with help, catch what you can in the plastic thingy and scrutinize it for offensive floaters and sinkers. Repeat all until satisfied.
   Now, go fly in whatever temperature/moisture level you're comfortable with and fiddle with the mixture and carb heat to produce the smoothest running engine you can.
   Land, park and refuel ONLY with smelly, blue stuff. Go into the nice, heated hangar, soak your bunyons in Marvel Mystery Oil and pour that alcohol down your neck while you read Lycoming, Continental or Franklin operation & service manuals concerning the correct way to feed and fondle your engine :^)
   Of course, if you use Jeep gas in your plane I don't know what to suggest......
   Gregg Horrell
   Not Trying to Sell Anything
   Tucson, AZ

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Rather than treating the symptom to the problem by illegally adding alcohol, solve the problem by properly draining the sumps!!!!

Also not selling anything.
Randy

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

From my 1981 172P P.O.H.  Section 8, page 8-12. ..."Therefore, to alleviate the possibility of fuel icing occuring under these unusual conditions, it is permissible to add isopropyl alcohol or ethylene glycol monomethyl ether (EGME) compound to the fuel supply"...     
..."Alcohol, if used, is to be blended with the fuel in a consentration of 1% by volume. Consentrations greater than 1% are not recommended since they can be detrimental to fuel tank materials"...   ..."Any high quality isopropyl alcohol may be used,"...

Refer to your aircraft POH for approved fuel additives and instructions on how to mix and introduce them into your aircraft fuel system.

Someone was going to apologize?

Del Lehmann
Mena, Arkansas USA

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Thanks Del,
   That IS news to me! I apologize for not being aware of that. Now I'll have to see if your POH for a 1981 172P with Lycoming O-320-D2J authorizes alcohol in Lenny's 1967 172 with the Continental O-300-D.
   I may've missed that part in my 1966 when I owned it. I'm not saying it isn't there...just never remember seeing a reference in older Cessnas for adding alocohol or glycol to fuel.
   I do appreciate you sharing your POH info...it may put out some other fires on this thread :^)
   P-Model Cessnas are pretty nice BTW....Cessna finally admitted the 172N's H2AD was an anchor and put a proper engine in the next model year. Larger dorsal and rudder trim were nice features.
   Thanks again,
      Gregg Horrell

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Gentlemen:

Your mileage may vary.  You are free to believe anything you wish.

There are a growing number of pilots and mechanics who are becoming comfortable in relying on hard data rather than someone's unsupported opinion.  Some folks would rather not be bothered with the facts when holding dear a longheld opinion or belief... even when it is clearly in error.

Even when Mr. Lehman presented supporting documentation on this particular issue, there was the ever-present, "Yeah, but..." and not a single hint of "Oops, maybe I was wrong."

Thank you.

Walter Atkinson

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

    Well I'll be dipped! After further digging I found the following jewels. So, for the purpose of this thread I'm sorry I scoffed at the idea of glycol additives for water emulsification. Hear that, Walter? ;^)
   That said, I still endorse thorough pre-flight draining and inspection. Another possible cause of Lenny's loss of power could have been filter icing. I've experienced this in Germany and it shows by an INSTANT increase in power when carb heat is pulled...even a little bit...because you're by-passing the blocked filter.
   So, if you have the proper measuring equipment you can dump EGME into the fuel, not to exceed the following limitations:


     (From Sacramento Skyranch...a wealth of information)



Lycoming Service Letter L172B dated January 25, 1980 says in part "...tests conducted with EGME used as an ice inhibiting fuel additive have shown to be satisfactory for use in all Avco Lycoming engines with no adverse affects on engine operations when used in concentrations up to 0.15% by volume in Aviation Gasoline. The use of EGME as a fuel additive in Avco Lycoming engines is approved by Avco Lycoming and the FAA." 

Continental Service Bulletin M81-11 Rev. 1 states in part "...Under certain ambient conditions of temperature/humidity, water can be supported in the fuel in sufficient quantities to create restrictive ice formation along various segments of fuel system." "... ethylene glycol monomethyl ether compounds conforming to military specification MIL-L-27686E, if approved for use in the aircraft fuel system by the aircraft manufacturer, can be added for this purpose. The ethylene glycol monomethyl ether compound must be carefully mixed with the fuel in concentrations not to exceed 0.15 percent by volume."

Continental issues the following warning that is important to understand:

"Mixing of the EGME compound with the fuel is extremely important because concentration in excess of that recommended (0.15 percent volume maximum) can have a harmful effect on engine components. Use only blending equipment that is recommended by the manufacturer to obtain proper proportioning."

Hopes this helps,
Gregg Horrell
Walter...George....Peace :^)

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

FAA Advisory Circular AC43-16 also addresses the subject.
"WINTER OPERATIONS
This article was excerpted from a Special Issue General Aviation Airworthiness Alert issued in Dec. 1985.
ANTI-ICING ADDITIVES
While proper fuel sampling and sumping is essential in preventing the formation of ice due to free water in the fuel, it will not eliminate the hazard of ice blockage of fuel flow. Under certain conditions, water in suspension or solution may form ice crystals. Since water in suspension or solution is not removed by sumping, the formation of ice crystals must be prevented by adding anti-icing additives, such as isopropyl alcohol or ethylene glycol monomethyl ether (EGME), to the fuel. Both additives absorb water and reduce the freezing point of the mixture. Teledyne Continental and Avco Lycoming approve the use of both additives in their engines, subject to approval by the respective airframe manufacturers. When alcohol or EGME are used, instruction for their proper use must be carefully followed. Obtain and follow the aircraft and engine manufacturers recommendations regarding the use of anti-icing additives in the fuel for your aircraft.
DRAINING SUMPS
Proper sumping is very important during the preflight check. Sufficient fuel should be drawn off into a transparent container to see if the fuel is free from contaminants. Extra care should be taken during changes in temerature, particularly when it nears the freezing level. Ice may be in the tanks, which may turn to water when the temperature rises, and may filter down into the carburetor or fuel controller causing engine failure. Water can freeze in lines and filters causing stoppage. A small amount of water, when frozen, can prevent proper operation of fuel pumps, selector valves, and carburetors."

also AC23.1521-1B paragraph 5(g)
"g.  ASTM D 910, Standard Specification for Aviation Gasolines, allows the use of isopropyl alcohol conforming to the requirements of ASTM D 4171, Specifications for Fuel System Icing Inhibitor, as a fuel system icing inhibitor. Accordingly, isopropyl alcohol conforming to ASTM D 4171 may be used in consentrations up to 1% by volume, to benefit safety, as an icing inhibitor..."

   So what does all this mean? My own conclusion:
We (aviators) have been using alcohol as an anti-icing additive for decades. It is not illegal or dangerous when added in accordance with the respective manufacturers recommendations. Isopropyl alcohol can and should be used, in certain conditions, as an anti-icing additive.

Did anyone else notice that the majority of the opinions and facts were from people in the south, where we have no experience using the stuff?

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Re: Carb heat while cruising


Jim,
Your concern about the "very high consentration" that would occur resulting from several months of use, and Walter's 100% agreement with that assessment, is understandable. Someone wishing to use isopropyl for the winter season should add up to 1% isopropyl alcohol to their tanks during refueling, at the start of the cold season. Then they would add 1% isopropyl by volume of the fuel added from this time on. Obviously, any fuel remaining in the tanks after a flight would still be 1% isopropyl, making it necessary to treat only the amount of fuel that is added. For my aircraft I would add about a fifth gallon to each of my 21.5 gal. tanks, equal to about 2 of George's German beers to each tank. Seems like alot, but it's actually under 1%.

Disclaimer: The use of alcohic beverage containers as measuring devices is not recommended, not not recommended, approved, unapproved, banned, or even mentioned in any aviation related document, to my knowledge. It just wouldn't look good. As for a proper measuring device, I believe that we can all make it up as we go. Use whatever you want, providing you know the volume, and that it is clean. Yes, even a Dixie cup. Maybe we could start another topic of discussion on this disturbing, outlandish, dangerous, illegal, misunderstood, controversial old wives tail (tale).

Also, important to note is that the isopropyl alcohol used as an additive to aircraft fuel DOES have to meet certain specifications, possibly different for the various manufacturers. My FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual  uses the verbage " any high quality". This excludes anything you might purchase at Wal-Mart. "Rubbing" alcohol is allready saturated with water and would do more harm than good.

I agree that fuel quality standards are "strictly adhered to" at the refineries. I also know that after having been transfered numerous times into and out of tanks, tanker trucks, inground and above ground tanks, and then into our aircraft, that the quality can and does vary. How much? I don't know. What kind of regulations govern Av fuel transporters and retailers? Do they have required intervals for changing filters and taking periodic fuel samples to insure quality? Does everybody do what their supposed to? I don't know, I'm asking.

Excellent and enlightening discussion. I've learned alot. From everybody. Many thanks.

Not affiliated with anyone.
And no, I don't get a commision either

Del Lehmann

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Hi All:
   Let me get this straight... "Lycoming says" up to .15% may be added... (that is .15 of ONE PERCENT) so lets just say 1/10 of one percent (1 part per 1000) to keep it EZ. Soooo climbing up on the ladder... in the rain and snow... I am trying to measure out the correct amount for a refueling of... say 10 gals. per tank to keep it EZ again. Hummm.... 1/10 of one percent of ten gals. is.... hummm.... well... humm... 10 gals. is 60 pounds... 1/1000 of that is 0.06 pounds... at 16 oz to a pound... one once is .0625 pounds... close enough.... soooo one once per 10 gals is the approved amount...
   Jeez why brother... that is a very, very small amount to measure... and repeated doses risk concentrations that are not approved. And, as Mr Horn pointed out...  my Cessna manual says no additives are to be used.
   Blue skies to all, Bob

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

I hope this doesn’t sound muffled, speaking thru all the egg on my face.

Walter Atkinson, I sincerely apologize.  I not only apologize for the personal nature of the criticism,  but also for the unprofessional manner in which I did it. 

I apologize to all who read my previous messages in this thread.  My previous comments were improperly based upon obsolete information.  The egg on my face is well-deserved.  (Not a defense, there being NONE for my comments, but checking the cancellation history of Advisory Circulars prohibiting alcohol in fuel, would have been appropriate.  I never.   As they say, …Never say never.) 

I actually have plenty of experience Del, in cold northern climates using anti-icing additive in fuel.  I used it on the trans-Atlantic ferries that once was my job. Considered a banned substance at the time, it just wasn’t alcohol.  It was supplied by the refiner, added at the fuel farm or injected at the fuel nozzle on the truck in prescribed dosage.  Isopropyl alcohol was only used to clean windshields of grease and oil and adhesives, and filters and tools on the workbench,… not as a fuel additive. 

I’m confident of my previous comments regarding dosage.  1% approval ratings or not, I’d not add it to my own fuel over the wing. (How do you know how much water is in it?) So, personally I’ll only use fuel anti-ice additive that is pre-mixed at the pump. 

There are some “old aviator” sayings that really should become more ingrained in my memory.  One of the best ones is “If you find yourself in a hole….quit digging.”
Maybe I should contribute a new one: “Stay off high horses.  Not even a high horse will allow you to see out of a really deep hole.”

Thanks Walter, Del, and all, for the lesson.   And please accept my apology.

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

George:

Thank you.  No harm, no foul! <g>  As I've said in the past on this forum, a keyboard is a terrible way to communicate.  Humans were meant to TALK to one another.  In my haste to communicate my experience, I neglected to explain what I meant by a small amount.  Me thinking tiny amounts like cc's could easily be thought of as a beer can full by someone else.  Not good communication.  My friend who lives in Cadillac, MI, where I go to fly ski planes in the winter and float planes in the summer has a 10cc syringe kept behind the seat where the fuel tester lives.

A 10cc syringe works quite well to titrate the appropriate amount of anti-icing liquid he keeps in the baggage compartment when the lakes are frozen over.  I'm a Southern Boy.  All I do is add the correct amount for the fuel added that he has listed on a sheet of paper when I add fuel.  It's ............ a small amount by my standards, since I measure stuff in a shot glass as FULL. <vbg>

WE are all in this row-boat together.  We aviators are a small group and we need to remain friends against those who would have us walking.  I can think of NO topic which should separate us to the point of incommunication... unless you want me to stop flying.

I get over 200 e-mails a day asking engine questions.  I visit 5 other forums almost daily.  I sometimes answer expiditiously with incomplete explanations, and seldom take the time to site references.  I try VERY HARD not to answer a question I have no experience with.  There is only so much time in the day for me , too... since most all of us have real jobs.  I will try to do better, too.  Thank you for your response, George.  It was kind of you.  It would have been easy not to respond. You did not do that and I respect that.

Now, let's argue something that MATTERS... like Cessna vs. Piper!!!  (yeah, I know, it'll be a short discussion!)  <VBG>

Walter Atkinson

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Georges
your the one who gave me the most informations on the most subjects in this forum in last 2 years .
im glad to see your last post post to walter,your a gentlemen .

Walter
you mention you visit 5 forums almost every day .
wich are them

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

*you mention you visit 5 forums almost every day*

Cessna Owners, CPA, Beechlist, Lancair, APO, COPA sometimes, and a few others occasionally.

Walter

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

George,
Accepted!! Thanks. There can be no doubt that everyone who has read this thread has learned something from it, thanks to EVERBODY who participated.
Del

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Bob White,
There have been 2 anti-icing additives discussed here; Ethylene glycol monomethyl ether (EGME), and isopropyl alcohol. The mixing ratio that you mention is for the EGME, and is correct, only for EGME. Isopropyl, as an anti-icing additive, is mixed a full 1% by volume, roughly 10 times the amount in your example; remember, by volume, not weight.

Which model Cessna is it that you say prohibits the use of additives? Is this info contained in the Service Manual or POH?

Thanks,
Del

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

  Del:
   Thank you for the prompt to check out my manual. Yep... I think all that talk of alcohol got me a little woozy. I just carefully re-read My "1958 Cessna Skylane's Owner Manual" and in fact, it has NO provision for using fuel additives. It only says that "Aviation grade fuel should always be used..." I was remiss, in that I recollected it saying prohibited, rather than saying nothing about them. It has cold weather provisions for diluting the oil and all that, but not a word about additives. I think my memory converted that "nothing to not." BTW, in the ten years I've owned the plane I've checked the sumps before every flight and I don't believe I recovered more than a teaspoon of water TOTAL in all that time... but the fear of contaminated fuel is always in the back of my mind. How much water do other plane owners find?
   Blue skies to all, Bob

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

it is -40 here this morning 200 miles north of quebec city.
you ask -40C or -40F .well look on a thermometer and youll see its the same .
i flew last week end at-20f .you have to be more carefull but it can be fun .sure gets great performance.
also spoke with a commercial operator who have 25 beavers and otters.he is operating all of them from june to november for fisherman and hunters.in winter he keeps 2 running on skis to dispatch staff to companies that operates further north .
he always operated these 2 beavers all winter down to minus 40 .
only this year he gave a new instruction to his pilots nor to fly below -5F.not for fuel freezing but due to cylinder cracking .
they also never put an additive on the fuel except when the plane has been hangared .in that case they add isopropyl alcool that they buy at wal mart.they also have no fancy formula .they just put 'some'. they never have problems with  that operating system in last 25 years

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Most of Wal-Marts (or whatever store you buy it from) alcohol is 50% alcohol...if you get the stuff that costs a little more its 70%...the rest is water.  I think the stuff they use for sterylizing is still only 90%.
You'll need to go to a Home Depot or some other supply house to get "the good stuff"  (It works great for wiping off silicone sealants)

This is neither a recommendation to or not to use the stuff in any manor that you see or don't see fit.  tongue

Michael

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Remember, radial engines have lower compressions (6:1) and can handle lower octane fuels than the engines most of us are running in GA airplanes.  Adding alcohol has less effect on the detonation margin of those radials than it does on the higher compression engines in our airplanes.  Caution in the amount used is wise.  A very small amount is effective and a lot is no more useful and possibly harmful.

Walter Atkinson

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

<HTML>My favorite argument concerning alcohol still remains: less filling! No, tastes great!  Actually, I live in Alaska and only have had chronic appearance of water in the fuel when living where the temperature frequently was rising and dropping below the freezing mark combined with a lot of rain, in coastal towns.  I've never used alcohol in either my car or airplanes and have never had trouble.  One adage I've heard from old-timers in Alaska is that once you start using Heet (alcohol) in a car, you need to keep using it.  This may be  because the alcohol not only mixes with and disperses water through combustion, but it can help attract water from the humid ambient atmosphere and pull it into solution. I don't know if its true, but its food for thought.  Cheers!</HTML>

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

Dirk:

* This may be  because the alcohol not only mixes with and disperses water through combustion, but it can help attract water from the humid ambient atmosphere and pull it into solution.*

That's an interesting thing to ponder.  Since a gas tank has a cap and air is not *supposed* to go in and out of it in large quantities, I wonder how much vapor would be introduced?  Let's start with the assumption that this happens a lot and there is a lot of moisture present.  Wouldn't *pulling it into solution* be the object as opposed to allowing it to collect as a liquid contaminate in the bottom of the tank?

I could be wrong, but I've always thought that having a tablespoon of water evenly distributed in solution throughout 30 gallons of 100LL would be far less of a problem than having the whole tablespoon go into the fuel system at once.  I've seen that effect and it can make your heart attack you!

What am I missing?

Hmmm?  I'm figuring on how to set up this experiment.  <g>

Walter Atkinson

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

There is actually quite an opportunity for water to get in the tanks.
  Each day the fuel warms and cools.  Expands and contracts.  The air above the fuel is expelled and re-inspired.  Any humidity will condense in the tanks and any alcohol will attract it and grab it and hold it in suspension.   At least until the alcohol is loaded to capacity, and then the water will precipitate out.   (Or worse, the airplane will climb to cool altitudes and the water will suddenly precipitate out and overwhelm the gascolator with more than it was intended to deal with and the engine can't burn water.)

If the fuel has no alcohol in it, any water from atmosphere will settle out to the sumps and/or be captured by the gascolator to be drained during preflight.     Thats the scenario I propose, anyway.
I thought I'd be clever about 20 years ago and added alcohol to all my ground power equipment because I'd read about alcohol being a good anti-icing agent, and winter was coming. 
My equipment was unuseable only 3 months later and the fuel tanks had to be removed and acid-cleaned, and epoxy coated inside to correct all the corrosion from the accumulated water.  (The fuel appeared to have about 5% water precipitated inside the tanks.  It amounted to several cups of water in the bottom of the tanks.  The carburetor bowls were ALL excessively corroded and required overhauls.)  This previous experience back in 1985 might explain why I developed an aversion to usng alcohol in fuel.
  A more recent example is only this winter with my emergency power generator, garden tiller, and pressure washer out here on the ranch.   They were all stored in the hangar this winter with automotive fuel in them, that I am highly convinced were alcohol laced by the distributor as part of the winter fuel recipie.  All THREE of those tanks have been discovered with large quantities of water in them and two of them have had to have their carbs removed and overhauled to get them to run.  The bowls were full of what looked like calcium deposits.   (I'm sure it's corrosion by-products from interaction between the aluminum carb body, the steel bowls  and the precipitated water that drained into them from the gravity fuel system those two have.  The water served as the electrolyte, is my belief.)   
  It cost me a whole day of labor and lots of $$$ to get them serviceable again, and the fuel tanks are now internally damaged with rusted areas.  I will ony store them in the future with (TCP-spiked) 100LL avgas in them (and I'll use AeroShell oil in the engine crankcases since they are all air-cooled and will be burning leaded fuel.)

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Re: Carb heat while cruising

George:

You sure make a compelling argument against the use of alcohol on a regular basis.  In this case it seems as though the engine management non-issue is clearly overshadowed by the significant maintenance issue the practice may present.  I appreciate the time you took to address that in the manner in which you did.  After reading that, I think you're probably right about it being a bad idea to use it regularly.  As I said, I'm a southern boy and have no long-term experience with this. When it's *cold* here, it's 25dF!!  We don't play football in the snow either. <g>

The only reason I can think of to use it would be if you SUSPECT a problem and think you might avoid having water freeze in a line which would be a bad thing!  I can think of other, better options, however. <g>

I have BIG gascolators in my Twin Beech and I have noticed that if they are not cleaned rather regularly, corosion can become a problem.

Good points.  Thanks.  You educated me and I appreciate it.

Walter

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