Carb Heat Problem????

Re: Carb Heat Problem????

Well said Barry B.
I would add that I agree with both Walter and George, to a certain degree. There can be no doubt that Walters data is correct. George doesn't appear to really be disputing the accuracy of Walters data, just the method of presentation.

Walter remarked;
*The people from the FAA Engine Directorate are changing some of the ways they do things based on what they've seen and recently learned from us. The folks in charge of the FAA A&P testing have seen this data and have decided that they have some of the answers wrong on some of the questions on the FAA tests (specifically the A&P test). I have been asked to review these test questions for accuracy and make suggestions for improving the test questions and bring them more into harmony with the known engineering information. Wouldn't it make sense that if they had ANY concern that ANY of our information was even possibly wrong, they wouldn't stick their necks out to ask me to review their battery of test questions? Are these stupid people? I hope not. They are in charge of the testing.*

I would think that the people from the FAA Airworthiness Certification should also be priveliged to this same data. This would probably result in a change in operating techniques for our aircraft, that would eventually appear in our flight manuals and in the form of advisory circulars. Unless someone can present these proven methods of operation in the form of a flight manual supliment, AC, or other FAA Approved document, I dont believe we're to that point yet. It is illegal to operate your aircraft contrary to it's flight manual.

Walter wrote:
*The FAA does not do research and does not endorse ANY operating technique of ANY kind. That is not their function. FAA approval of a POH in NO WAY suggests that they agree or disagree with the recommendations found within. *

I respectfully disagree with that statement. My basis for this is FAR 23.1581, which says in part:
" each part of the airplane flight manual containing information precribed in 23.1583 through 23.1589 must be approved, segregated, identified and clearly distinguished from each unapproved part of that manual."

23.1583 through 23.1589 address the critical operating parameters of our airframe and engine, and goes on to say:
"In finding that the manual is acceptable, the FAA would review the manual to determine that the required information is complete and accurate. The manual would also be reviewed to ensure that any additional information provided by the applicant is not in conflict or contrary to the applicable airworthiness requirements."

I agree with Walter, that the FAA does not do the research themselves, however, the entities that are doing the research must do it in accordance with the FAA regulations that govern the testing of products for subsequent certification and approval for those products. This includes operating techniques.

Here is a senerio:
Let's say you want to try operating your aircraft/engine in a way that you've been convinced as being better, but contrary to the POH. Something goes wrong. How do you explain to the Feds, insurance adjuster, and etc. that your method is approved. There is a difference in proven data and approved data.

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Re: Carb Heat Problem????

Del:

* Let's say you want to try operating your aircraft/engine in a way that you've been convinced as being better, but contrary to the POH. Something goes wrong. How do you explain to the Feds, insurance adjuster, and etc. that your method is approved. There is a difference in proven data and approved data.*

Your points are well taken and, as usual, you have your ducks in a row.  But the information you correctly sited is only applicable to the information found in the LIMITATIONS Section of the POH.  If it's in the Limitations, it is regulatory and you may not legally operate the aircraft in any other mode.  If the information is not found in the Limitations Section, it is only *advisory* and it is not required by regulation that those *recommendations* be followed.  The only information reviewed and regulated by the FAA is that found in the Limitations Section.  The FAA has no dog in the fight where *recommendations* are concerned! <g>

Having recently been involved in reviewing a POH Suppliment which was submitted to the FAA and subsequently became FAA approved, I am vaguely familiar with this issue and process.

Del, thanks for your input.

Walter Atkinson

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Re: Carb Heat Problem????

Walter,
I may NOT have my ducks in a row. I could be interpreting it all wrong. I dont want to beat a dead horse, but I have a strong curiousity to know the right answer to issues such as this. I'm an IA, and if someone, maybe a customer, ask me a question, I want to give them good information.
I have reread "Airplane Flight Manual and Approved Manual Material" FAR 23.1581 through 23.1589. I cannot seem to locate where it says anything about only the limitations section of my AFM being approved, nor about the remainder of info being only advisory.
23.1581 (a) says in part:
"An AFM must be furnished with each airplane and must include the following:
(a)(1) Information required by 23.1583 thru 23.1589
(a)(2) Other info that is necessary for safe operation..."
According to 23.1581(b) Approved info is ALL of the info required by:
23.1583 Operating Limitations
23.1585 Operating Procedures
23.1587 Performance Information
23.1589 Loading Information

Specifically 23.1585(j), as it pertains to this thread:
"Procedures for the safe operation of the airplanes systems and equipment, both in normal use and in the event of malfunction, must be furnished."
This particular paragragh is the reason our AFM is devided into Normal and Emergency Procedures.

There are no procedures for the use of carb heat to balance F/A ratios in the Normal Procedures. Its use to eliminate induction icing is discussed in Emergency Procedures.

I just finished installing 6 new jugs on an IO520, A36, that only had 252 hours since a TCM reman, because of poor compression. I installed GAMIjectors and an EDM700. The customer had heard bits and pieces about operating LOP and ask if I knew anything about it.
I know enough to know it's a good thing, when done correctly, but not enough to advise someone else on procedure. Even if I did know, what document could I present for procedure that would be acceptable as substitute for a manufactures procedures.

Like I said, I could be interpreting it all wrong. If I am, please accept my apology in advance and point me in the right direction.
Kind Regards, Del

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Re: Carb Heat Problem????

Del:

* Even if I did know, what document could I present for procedure that would be acceptable as substitute for a manufactures procedures.* 

The enginerring charts in the A-36 manual specifically approve LOP operation. Feel free to call me to discuss how to address this with a customer.  I will be happy to discuss this with you.

There are places for pilots to get this information.  Let me know if I can help.

Walter Atkinson

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Re: Carb Heat Problem????

I don't have a Tinkers worth of anything to add to this conversation except to say thank you all for all the "patience" everyone seems to have in addressing this matter.It's been very informative, and obviously a little "stressy" for some. Thanks Again

John

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